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Episode 411: Golden Girls Unplugged: Behind the Scenes with Patrick Hines

Melissa Roth: Weirding Way Media.

Amy Englehardt [Singing]: 80s TV Ladies, So sexy and so pretty. 80s TV Ladies, Steppin’ out into the city. 80s TV Ladies, often treated kind of sh-[wolf whistle]. Working hard for the money in a man’s world. 80s TV Ladies!

Sharon Johnson: Welcome to 80s TV Ladies where we look back in order to leap forward. I'm your co-host, Sharon Johnson.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And I'm your other co-host, Susan Lambert Hatem. Before we get to our interview, I think we need to take one moment to honor those killed, kidnapped, trafficked or harmed by our government. What is happening now in our country is real, but it is not inevitable. Your voice matters, your actions matter.

Sharon Johnson: Your vote matters. Make sure you are registered to vote at vote.org. Even if you have been voting regularly, it doesn't hurt to double check.

Sharon Johnson: Meanwhile, we're going to take a moment to breathe in peace and breathe out humanity.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Excellent. Onward. We are so thrilled to have our next guest on. He is an award-winning podcaster for Broadway, true crime and Golden Girl pods. I mean that alone means we gotta talk to him. He does live shows as well and is an all-around raconteur.

Sharon Johnson: He has also written a fantastic book called Failure is Not Not an Option.

Susan Lambert Hatem: So here we go because let's get into Golden Girls deep dive. Welcome to 80s TV Ladies, Mr. Patrick Hinds.

Patrick Hinds: Thank you so much. I'm delighted to be here. Thank you for having me.

Sharon Johnson: Yeah, we've been so much looking forward to talking to you about Golden Girls and especially after having a chance to listen to some of your podcast episodes. It's really great.

Patrick Hinds: Well, thanks. You know, it's such a pleasure to get to make that podcast. I get to make it with the incredible Jennifer Simard every week. Three-time Tony nominee and just, you know, a comic genius. And I feel very honored to get to do that with her. So it is such a highlight of my week every week.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I love that. What is it like working with her? Does she just walk in with her Tony nominees? Like—

Patrick Hinds: No. Well, you would, you know, I would like her to, but she doesn't like, she's a very humble person. And you know, like all great comedians, she's sort of normal in real life and you know, she's a little bit on the quieter side. And then we have this also like deep friendship outside of the booth. And so, you know, on Fridays, which are our recording days, she'll come in and we'll chit chat for 20 minutes and catch up and, and then we'll sit down and you know, it's, I always think of it as a real honor to get to make her laugh. If I ever say anything funny and she laughs really loud or belly laughs, and it's like, oh, my goodness, I made this like, great comedic actress laughs. So it's, and she's so smart and she just, you know, she's an outside the box thinker and she's got such interesting ideas and we both come from very different life, you know, experiences. And that's really fun to bring into the show. So it's a-- I, I wake up every day that I get to be a podcaster with these incredible women. I make another show with a woman named, with Gillian Pensavalle, who's also just a genius. And so I'm, you know, I'm a very lucky guy.

Susan Lambert Hatem: That is so incredible. Like, so we'll stay on Golden Girls for a minute, but then I want to get to your other podcast, including your theater podcast, which is when I first heard you.

Patrick Hinds: Oh, man.

Susan Lambert Hatem: But, so what made you decide to do a Golden Girls deep dive?

Patrick Hinds: You know, I think I, I had always wanted to do a TV recap show. I wasn't always exactly sure what I wanted to do, but I had been making True Crime Obsessed for about eight years. And it's, you know, we recap true crime documentaries on that show and so it's very heavy and we make something like 170 episodes a year. And so it's like living in that very dark, you know, true crime space. After a while I was like, I need something else. I need something a little lighter. Something a little. And, you know, the idea of starting The Golden Girls from the beginning, the idea for the podcast too was to do more than just a recap show. We wanted to bring in historical stuff. We wanted to bring in the history of the show. We wanted to bring in some historical context to the things they're talking about. And so one day I just woke up and I was like, I think today's the day. I think today's the day I'm going to ask my friend if she wants to do this with me. She was a very fast yes and we just started doing it.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And so what brought you to theater and, and podcasting?

Patrick Hinds: You know, it's funny, I started podcasting in, I want to say, like, 2014. I found podcasts as a listener. I had a very long subway commute at that time. My, my commute was like an hour each way. And honestly, my eyes were starting to go. Like, I'm just old and I've always had bad eyes. And I didn't want to read on the train anymore, so I was just kind of like, what else? What are these podcasts? And I started listening to podcasts, and I naturally graduate, gravitated towards theater podcasts. And there was this one great podcast called Downstage Center, where a guy named Howard, who was, you know, the president of the American Theater Wing, was interviewing these, like, big Broadway stars. And they were really fascinating conversations. And then one day he just stopped making the podcast. And I was like, I. I need this podcast to exist. Somebody else is going to do this. And nobody did. And so I was like, well, I guess I'm going to do this. I felt really called to make this thing that I just wanted to exist in the world. I had no idea how to make a podcast. I had no idea about audio. I had no idea about booking guests. I had really no connection to the Broadway community. But I just started. And I just started, you know, asking big Broadway stars if they would come talk about their careers with me. I was the first-- I mean, not to sort of toot my own horn, but I was, I was the first podcaster outside of Howard to do that. And they were just saying yes. And so I just started having these amazing conversations. And, yeah. And the podcast called Theater People was born.

Sharon Johnson: What was your most memorable interview in that, during that stage of podcasting?

Patrick Hinds: That's such a good question. It was quite a while ago now. I mean, I would say, like, you know, I really loved my interview with Lin-Manuel Miranda. You know, he and I go back to before he was even famous. I was a freelance writer in New York, and somebody introduced me to this young kid who was working on this musical that had a gay character. It was called In the Heights. And the gay character ultimately got lost from the show. But, you know, Lin was substitute teaching at the time, and so I got to spend a day with him. And then all those years later, you know, In the Heights had been a huge success, and we had kept in touch peripherally, and I reached out to him and asked if he would come and do my little podcast. And he did, and he was so amazing. And so that was one. I remember also interviewing Renee Elise Goldsberry backstage during Hamilton, like, right when she got her Tony nomination. And again, it was this whole thing where her team wanted to do the interview, but the Hamilton team wasn't really getting back to me. They had to kind of sneak me into the Richard Rogers Theater, snuck me into her dressing room. She couldn't have been more amazing. And that was, you know-- I also I think about my interview with Jen Colella who played Beverly Bass in a show called Come From Away, which is honestly a 9-11 musical. And it's this really beautiful story about people coming together on 9-11. And Jen is this like incredible, gorgeous, sexy lesbian on Broadway. And you know she was just. She's one of the warmest people I've ever met. She tells great stories and but you know--

Susan Lambert Hatem: She was so great. I got to see her do Come From Away on Broadway. It, it was phenomenal. It was, I mean really that whole experience is amazing.  

Patrick Hinds: Because Come From Away, for anybody who doesn't know, it tells the story of an American airlines flight on 9-11 that got diverted coming back to the United States and they were diverted to a town in Canada called Gander. And, but because there was a big airport there. But they you know Gander-- All of the flights were sort of sent there and this, this like little town in Canada they say like quadrupled in size overnight. And it really is about-- I could get like emotional talking about it. It's about the town coming together to take care of these American people who, you know, didn't know what was going on in their home country and feeling very out of place. And, and, and these people got stuck there for a week. And so this writing team went, you know, 10 years later and interviewed all of the townspeople about that experience. And the role that Jen played was one of the pilots, a woman named Beverly Bass. And so the show is very much an ensemble piece. There's no solos, you know, until you get to Jen's big song called Me in the Sky, which tells the story of this woman, Beverly Bass, being the first American pilot, the first female pilot for American Airlines. And it's just amazing show-stopping moment. And it was a star making moment for Jen Colella. And so yeah, you know, getting to talk to people. One of the really fun things about that podcast was like talking to people who were just on the brink of becoming stars. You know, those were the people who were saying yes to my interview requests. And it was like they were doing that show that was about to propel them to stardom. And it was really amazing meeting some of those people at that point in their careers and getting their stories and their-- You know, Ariana DeVos was one of the people I interviewed during that time and she was, had just played the bullet in Hamilton and she was an ensemble member and she was-- In our interview, if you go back and listen to it, she talks about how, I think I've decided I'm not going to do ensemble anymore. I'm going to really only go for, like, leading roles. She has an Academy Award now, and we're less than 10 years later. You know? I mean, it was amazing. It's just speaking to theater artists is a great gift because they're very generous with their stories and their perspective are, they're so hard working and just like really great people.

Sharon Johnson: I know what you mean, though, about getting a chance to talk to people. That's what been one of the gifts of our podcast is the number of women in particular that we've talked to who were working on television in the 80s, many of them unsung, many of them people that most people don't know of or never heard of. And it's just been, it's just been a joy. I totally get it. I totally understand.

Patrick Hinds: It really—Interviewing-- As much as I love making The Golden Girls podcast and True Crime Obsessed, where I get to talk a lot. As you can tell, I like to talk. I really do love an interview podcast where I get to do research on somebody and find, you know, interesting stories and, you know, getting people. We were getting these actors to share their perspective with young people who were listening and, you know, trying to come up in the business and what advice did they have, and, you know, how do you overcome the self-doubt and the imposter syndrome? So, you know, yeah, I mean, having conversations with people is just so great.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And, and feel so important now, like, to have real conversations with real people and, be in community and, you know, it's sort of why I think at least ups and downs and all that stuff. Theater is still such a vital, important art form because being in a room, in community with people to tell stories is unmatched in its ability to, to, make you feel good and, and part of something.

Patrick Hinds: You know, I think that one of the reasons for that is because you get the dual experience of shutting out the world for two hours and experiencing a whole new world with a bunch of people. So it's at the same time, it's an escape, but also an opportunity to experience something totally brand new.

Susan Lambert Hatem: So I'm curious, like, did you grow up in New York? Like, what's, what's your background? How did you end up theater, podcasting, storytelling?

Patrick Hinds: I, I grew up on Cape Cod. You know, I went to Emerson College and, you know, I, I'm a worker. Like, my mom was a single mom of four kids. We grew up in low-income housing on like, food stamps, which I've been screaming from the rafters the last couple of weeks. My mom was a full-time working parent and we still were on food stamps because-- And that is the story of so many Americans, especially like our service members. And so, you know, I, From a young age, I was just-- I got my first job when I was, I think 12. I was delivering newspapers and I've been a worker ever since. And I went to Emerson College and I thought I wanted to be a Broadway actor, but then quickly realized I was no good at it, but I wanted to keep the connection to the theater. And so, you know, when I moved to New York right after graduating college and I was a creative kid, so I, you know, I-- My first job was for CNBC. I did that for like nine months. Again, a terrible fit. And so I found my way to restaurants and I, you know, was bartending and then, but like trying to be a writer during the day. And then that evolved into podcasting, which I never imagined could be an actual job that you make a living doing. And I happened to be right in that wave of like, nobody was making a living making podcasts. And then some people were and I started to sort of pay attention as to how these creators were sort of monetizing and what they were doing to move into it being a career. And so, yeah, I mean, I always loved the theater and, you know, that was sort of my way of staying connected to it was when I started making the Theater People podcast, I really wanted to, like-- All of a sudden these sort of Broadway adjacent, content creators were, were coming up. A lot of people were doing blogs and vlogs and, you know, social media was just starting to happen and I just happened to find my way into that world via podcasting. And then, you know, it kind of evolved from there. From Theater People-- It was funny, I realized I had-- What would happen would be I, I would want to interview one person from a show that was new that season. But then I'd end up interviewing the director, you know, doing an episode, and then I would interview another actor. And I realized I had all-- It was really In the Heights. I had interviewed like, every single person who was in In the Heights. I interviewed Tommy Kail, the director, who's another old friend of mine. And one day I was like, I have enough interviews here that I could make a sort of documentary about in how In the Heights got made. And, so I pitched my friend Natalie, who now works for me, works with me in my company. She sort of runs our company. She was working for a company called Today Tix at the time. And we conspired to pitch them a podcast about, called Broadway Backstory. And the idea was to sort of make documentary episodes about how Broadway shows developed from an idea into a full production. And so I used a lot of existing interviews that I had, but then I would go out and interview everybody else. Like our first episode was In the Heights. And then I think I did Legally Blonde and I interviewed the writers and the set designer and the director and the choreographer and the actors. And I did all of this on my own, you know, with Natalie's sort of backend help on production and scheduling and all of that. But I was sort of learning as I went, you know, making these one-hour documentaries out of all of these interviews that I had done, and it was a really beautiful thing. So that was my second theater podcast was called Broadway Backstory. And we did that for two seasons. I think we did eight episodes per season. And each season had one show that was two episodes. So the first season that was In the Heights and the second season that was Hamilton. So we covered 14 shows and two seasons. And it's one of my favorite things I've ever done.

Susan Lambert Hatem: That is amazing. Have you read The Season by William Goldman?

Patrick Hinds: No, no, I haven't read it. Yeah, I mean, it's one of those books that people used to talk to me about all the time. I've read it, but it's, it's certainly very much in line with what I was doing.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I mean, it's such a different landscape. But yeah, it. It is very interesting because, he covered –Sharon, he covered, he just covered an entire season of Broadway, but it was like ’70-- I can't even remember when it was.

Patrick Hinds: Yeah, it was a long time ago. There was another documentary, that came out, I want to say, in like the, you know, 2010 or whatever, the year that Wicked came out. And it covered most of the shows that opened that season as well, from opening through the Tonys. And it's like theater, the world of theater is just so endlessly fascinating. There are just endless stories to tell in that world.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah. And it's so interesting because some shows do amazing and then other shows you think are going to do amazing don't.

Patrick Hinds: And it's wild to see it, like, in a documentary. Like that documentary. I can't think of the name of it now, but, you know, it was the year that Wicked opened, and they're following it through the Tonys, and everyone thinks it's going to win the Tony. But then Avenue Q, this, like, little scratch, scrappy show won the Tony instead. And like, what an amazing way to end the movie. You know, like, it's. It's incredible.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Oh, that. Well, okay. We can't just talk about theater, Patrick.

Patrick Hinds: I know, I know. Sorry. Can we talk about the Indigo Girls for another two hours?

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yes, we can. But first, let's talk about, so how did you go from Broadway to true crime?

Patrick Hinds: Yeah, well, I met this incredible woman. Her name is Gillian Pensavalle. And, you know, one of the things that I found in my work doing, like, Broadway adjacent theater creator stuff, was that that world, at least when I was in it, was not very welcoming. You know, there's a lot of competition, a lot of competitiveness. And I was just saying this to my therapist today. I don't know how this happened. I don't know how I became this person. I do not have a competitive bone in my body. I want to do well. I want to be. You know, I want to. I want to succeed and I want to thrive. But I am not. I never really compare myself to other people. I've always come from this place of, like, wanting to help others and wanting to be helped by others, you know? And so, when I made it sort of my mission as a theater podcaster, that even though I was one of the first, whenever a new one would come out, I would never see it as competition. I would always reach out right away and say, you know, my name is Patrick. I make Theater People. I've been doing this for a long time. Welcome to the world. If there's anything I can do to help, please let me know. Sometimes creators would take me up on it, sometimes they wouldn't. But this woman, Gillian Pensavalle, was making this new podcast called the Hamilcast about Hamilton. And I knew it was gonna be so popular, probably more popular than my podcast. And I had one moment of like, I'm not gonna reach out to her. Like, you know, hers is gonna be more popular than mine. And then I was like, no, reach out to her. Be who you are. And I sent her a DM on Twitter, same thing. I'm Patrick. I make Theater People. If I can ever help you, please let me know. She wrote back to me right away. And. And we just started communicating and a friendship quickly developed and we started meeting for, you know, coffee. And that turned into meeting for happy hour. And it was right at the time when I was really trying to figure out how some creators were transitioning from doing podcasts as a passion project to actually making a living making podcasts. And I was seeing people really having success in a couple of different genres. And one of them was true crime. And I loved the true crime genre and I really wanted to be a part of that genre anyway. And I was really paying attention to what kind of shows were working. And it was, you know, banter and people with big personalities and, you know, basically people that you wanted to hang out with. And Gillian and I were just so fun together. You know, I just knew that there was some sort of magic spark between us. And I remember talking to her about it and she's like, oh my God, I want to make a true crime podcast too. And, I was like, great, let's do it. We came up with an idea, that was kind of this nerdy, like three segmented podcast. Like we were going to have a new, like a true crime news segment and an interview segment with somebody from the true crime world at the end. And in the middle we were going to do like a segment where we talked about a thing, like a documentary or a podcast. And we recorded this pilot. And the middle section, we were sort of talking about this documentary, The Imposter. And it was so different than what I wanted to make. It was humorous. It was, we were, we were just so excited about. We were sort of talking over each other. I had had in my mind this sort of nerdy, sort of like commentary podcast. And as I was editing the episode together with the three segments, I got to that segment and I was like, this is so interesting. This isn't really what I wanted to make, but this is so different. It's not like anything that's out there. I kind of think this is the podcast. Like two friends watching true crime documentaries and sort of talking about it. And this was before Netflix was even streaming. This was like, you know, this was back before the true crime documentaries were just constant. This was like they were the ones that were known, but there wasn't a lot of them being made. Gillian agreed and that became our podcast. And you know, it just happened so fast. Within, within the first nine months, we were making enough money to quit our jobs and focus on it as our full-time gig. And then within a year, you know, we were to the point that we needed management to sort of handle all of the backend stuff so we could focus just on making the podcast. And so my husband quit his job and started managing us. And then, you know, the, the big agency, UTA, reached out to us and wanted to represent us. And, and here we are nine years later just doing the same thing.

Sharon Johnson: What do you think it is about true crime that is so interesting, that people are so fascinated by?

Patrick Hinds: You know, I probably. That's the most common question anybody who makes true crime content gets asked. And, and my, my answer has evolved over the years, I think. I think especially for women because, you know, the, the women make up the largest audience, or I should say non-male audiences make up the most, you know, the, the biggest audience of, or consumers of true crime content. We just. It's undeniable that women walk around the world, you know, knowing that they are vulnerable to these sorts of things. And, and I think that there is a curiosity about it. I think we want to know about it. I think the more we feel like we watch it and know about it, maybe it makes us feel a little bit safer. Maybe we learn something from it. So I think that's a really tragically-- As much as I hate to say that out loud, I think that that is a real thing about this. I think another thing, and this is just, you know, to be blunt, I mean, like, true crime stories are interesting. You know, I mean, I think they usually have a very strong beginning, middle and end, or they end in a mystery. And I think that we are naturally drawn to mysteries. And I think that it's. Honestly, I think it's hard. I, I think that we are sort of fascinated by the things that scare us, you know, and I, and I think that like, these are, these are safe feeling ways to sort of look at the scary things.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah, that sounds like that. It's so funny because I am fascinated by true crime to a degree, but not enough. Like, I really am, like, no, that's not good for me.

Patrick Hinds: Yeah, yeah. Well, and you know, one of the, one of the great gifts of working with Gillian has been really understanding the privilege that men walk around with in the world. You know? And it, I was shamefully unaware of it, you know, when we started. That like, you know, Gillian would talk about walking around the city with her headphones on and. But she can't listen to music. She has the headphones on so that people don't talk to her or so that like, she can be aware, like it, it's. I have an 11-year-old daughter now, you know, and I start to see all of these things through what the, like the world that my daughter is inheriting. And I think it's just as valuable, by the way to not watch it as it is to watch it. You know, I think if it's gonna make any anxiety worse, absolutely do not watch it. And that was why, we sort of took the approach that we did, which was, you know, we used to call ourselves a true crime comedy podcast, but we thought that was disrespectful to the content that we cover because we're never laughing at the crime. We're obviously, we're never laughing at the victims. We are sometimes laughing because we find ourselves getting just so worked up about it, or you know, the idiot cop that just like dropped the ball or the prosecutor that-- You know, it's like some of it is so absurd it's hard not to laugh. But we, we really did intentionally try to take a lighter approach to covering these cases without in any way being even ambivalent. You know, we always wanted to be a very strongly victim-focused, you know, conversation. But at, at the same time it's just like, it is just like somebody used to say, are you afraid that you're gonna run out of documentaries? And I'm like, I hope, like, put us out of work, I'll go back to bartending. Stop killing each other! You know?  

Susan Lambert Hatem: It's so funny. And I do love the approach of sort of covering it through documentaries. Right? So, you know, obviously, because we love television, you know, it's the, you know, and commenting on how someone pieces a story together is an interesting part of our culture. Like we all sit around and talk about, well, I didn't like that way that story was told and I don't like what that character's doing and I don't like what that real life character did when they killed so many people.

Patrick Hinds: Exactly. No, truly. And it's like, you know, Gillian and I sometimes have to remind ourselves that like, we as the documentary consumer have all of the information. So like, it's easy to be hard on some of the people in the documentaries because like, how did you not-- And you're like, oh, right, no, like at the time you didn't know all of the things that I know, you know? And so, yeah, it's-- And, and I gotta tell you, like, before true crime documentaries became so prominent, they are really were many, many artistically beautifully made documentaries. There was a lot of care put into them. And now you still find that there definitely are documentarians, I think, out there that are, that are doing the good work. But they're, they're so mass produced because they're so cheap to make, and all the streaming platforms want them, that it's, you know, it can be not great quality all the time.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, but enough about true crime. Let's talk about Golden Girls.

Patrick Hinds: Yeah! See? Now you understand why I had to make The Golden Girls podcast. Because you're like-- It gets to a point where you're like, I can't talk about this anymore.

Susan Lambert Hatem: All right, so when you were like, I want to talk about. I want to, you know, have some, some joy and lightness and, and sort of a rewatch, how did you pick Golden Girls? How did you land that?

Patrick Hinds: Golden Girls is just-- Number one, it's ubiquitous. I think almost everybody knows it. So it was something that we knew that, you know, a lot of people would care about. But also, it's just so good. It's been with me my entire life. When I was a young kid, probably against her better judgment, my mom let me watch it when it was first airing when I was probably 10 years old. You know, so it's all of those reasons that it's just, it's really good. It's always been with me. But I-- There were also opportunities, I thought, to do more than just do a rewatch podcast-- That we really could-- There's an amazing book out there called, by Jim Colucci.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Golden Girls Forever?

Patrick Hinds: Yes!

Susan Lambert Hatem: And we. We just interviewed Jim, so--  

Patrick Hinds: Jim is just the best. He's been on our podcast several times. I love that man. You know, and so I knew that book existed. So I knew there were stories to be told beyond just, you know, doing a rewatch podcast. So that was another thing. I wanted to do something more than just a rewatch, and I knew The Golden Girls would be fertile territory for that. But also, as a gay person, it was important to me to sort of talk about why the show was important to the gay community. I think it's no coincidence that the show launched really at the beginning of the AIDS crisis. And I think that, you know, we all think of it as such a comfort show, the gay community. I don't want to say more than any other community, but it certainly is very important to the gay community. And I wanted to sort of explain why I thought that was. Which I think, you know, there was a time in the mid-80s when, when people, gay people who survived and people who loved gay people who were dying were going to, like, 10 funerals a week. That's not hyperbolic. And sometimes more than that. Liza Minnelli tells a story about going to, like, 25 funerals in one week. And I think that, like, they would come home on Saturday nights and turn on The Golden Girls. And it was totally an escape. And I think that imprinted on them. I think that it became-- It was a comfort show for them in the moment, and it became a comfort show for them forever. And that was sort of handed down to the, to the younger, you know, members of our community. And I really wanted to draw that connection. I really wanted to sort of show that parallel.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Wow. I hadn't really thought of it that way, but, you know, because I am a little bit older than you, and it was a-- I mean, I was in LA at the time, and so I think it was less concentrated than it was in, say, New York, but there were still, like, people I knew that were, that are gone and--

Patrick Hinds: Yeah.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And lost and ostracized for it. And it was very horrifying.

Patrick Hinds: It's crazy. Like, you know, Fran Leibowitz, I was just watching a clip of her talking about this, and she was saying, like, just, you know, to add a little levity to the conversation. She was like, an entire generation of, like, A list, B list, C list, and D list gay creators were lost. You know? And she was saying, like, you know, that's why, in Fran Liebowitz's opinion, like, the taste of the 80s isn't great, because we lost so many of the people who were the tastemakers. You know? And she made this joke about, like, if any one of my dead, like, gay A list friends who died of AIDS called me and I said to them, you're never gonna guess who's famous. You know, because it was like not the cream of the crop or whatever, in Fran Leibowitz's opinion. And it's a joke, but, like, it really is true. We lost so much culture, you know.

Sharon Johnson: Gosh, I've never thought about that before, but that's absolutely true.

Patrick Hinds: Yeah.

Sharon Johnson: It was so devastating on so many levels. Oh, my gosh.

Patrick Hinds: And, like, leave it to Fran Leibowitz to find the meanest way to say it. But, like, yeah, it really. It really is true.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Okay, 80s TV Ladies, let's talk about night sweats. It's not glamorous, but it's real, and it's happening to me. My absolute lifesaver-- Cozy Earth bamboo sheets. They're cooling and moisture wicking so I can finally sleep soundly without overheating and wetting up everything. They are worth the hype. Visit cozyearth.com and use our exclusive 80s TV Ladies, 41% off code. 41%. And that code is 80sTVLadies. So what else have you discovered about The Golden Girls in doing this rewatch?

Patrick Hinds: You know, so much. I mean, it's been, you know, I was so honored to have been asked to be a part of this 40th anniversary special that ABC is doing. And I was revisiting some of these stories with them. And, you know, some of it isn't great. Like, you know, Stan Zimmerman, who was a writer on season one, told us a story about how, you know, he's, he's gay and his writing partner was gay. They weren't together, but they were both gay men. And The Golden Girls set was not super hospitable to people being openly LGBTQ. And you know, the cast obviously was very gay friendly. And he tells a story about Estelle Getty grabbing him on like his first day and pulling him behind the set and being like, I see you. You're safe with me. But like, shh. You know? So I think that's surprising to a lot of people. A show that's so beloved by the gay community wasn't super welcoming to people being sort of out in the workplace. So that's kind of wild. But then there, you know, there's the juicier stuff about the alleged feud between like, Bea Arthur and Betty White, which I think is pretty well established. And I think we sort of know is true and maybe it was less of a feud and more of a one sided sort of annoyance from Bea Arthur to Betty White. I think, you know, they, they certainly respected each other professionally, but there's no question that be that Betty was not Bea Arthur's favorite person.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah, yeah, that seems to be what we've heard too. Yeah.

Sharon Johnson: Yeah, that seems to be some-- That's something that really kind of irritates me because if you think about it, you never hear about that kind of, conflict, is too strong a word, but that kind of tension between male co-stars.

Patrick Hinds: And you know it exists.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And you know it exists.  

Sharon Johnson: Of course

Patrick Hinds: But no one's interested in talking about it.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah.

Sharon Johnson: The only time in recently that I can think of is there was a television version of the Mel Gibson cop movie.

Susan Lambert Hatem: There was a television version?

Patrick Hinds: Oh, Beverly Hills Cop.

Sharon Johnson: No, no. Beverly Hills Cop. Lethal Weapon, I think.

Patrick Hinds: Oh, yes.

Sharon Johnson: And. And it was, one of the Wayans brothers and this other guy. And it came out that there was no love lost between them. That whichever Wayans-- And I'm sorry. I can't remember. Was, like, trying to get the other guy fired and all this. And I'm like, you never hear of men doing this. You only hear about women.

Patrick Hinds: And when you do, it's like, oh, it's a gentleman's disagreement. They had creative differences. You know what I mean? But, like, for some reason we're so interested in-- And maybe. And certainly not to make any excuses. Like, that's deplorable and awful. Like, I'm not saying care less about the ladies’ feuds. Let's just also care more about the men's feuds.

Sharon Johnson: Exactly.

Patrick Hinds: It could be, like. It could be that we feel more invested in Betty White and Bea Arthur. Like, we think of them as, like, maternal figures. We genuinely care about them, you know? And so maybe, maybe that's part of why we're interested in it. But. And it could also just be we're so fascinated by how two people could dislike each other but be so good together on camera. You know? And this is not me trying to dispel the misogyny inherent in what we're talking about. Obviously, that is rampant and disgusting. But, you know, it's. We, just love these ladies.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah, I think it's. I think it is endlessly fascinating to, you know, you know, be like, well, what was happening behind the scenes, Clearly, we're all interested in that. But it's also. It is-- It is a different judgment when it's women. Right? Like, it is such a different judgment whether it's, it's, you know. And I think of it through, you know, through sitcoms, you know, on theater. It's. It's just a. It's just a different standard of what is allowed and then what is just poked at, you know, sort of endlessly.

Patrick Hinds: Yeah, it's, funny. Like, I just did an interview with Wendy Malick for, for the--

Susan Lambert Hatem: Oh, I heard that. Amazing.

Patrick Hinds: Yeah. And she's like, I was just so blown. I mean, my God, she's just like. She's so funny and she's so smart and she's so. You know, throughout the interview, she was snort laughing, which I was just like, Wendy, that is perfect. Like--

Susan Lambert Hatem: I loved that so much.

Patrick Hinds: Former, like, Ford model just, like, just snort laughing with wild abandon. But she was talking about, you know, she did a season of Kate and Allie, and she was talking about how, Jane Curtin-- And now, of course, I can't remember the other actress's name, but apparently they also hated each other. And they, you know, like, they would do their scenes, and then they wouldn't speak, and they would sort of go off to their corners. But you don't really hear about that feud because it was very professional. You know, it was very sort of like, they just sort of did. They just sort of did their thing.

Susan Lambert Hatem: It's Susan St. James, and we're going to cover Kate and Allie very soon. And so I'll be talking to you about getting Whitney Malick.

Patrick Hinds: Yes. Yes. Have you guys ever had Stan Zimmerman on your podcast? Because he's my connection to everybody.

Susan Lambert Hatem: He-- We-- He's had-- We've had him on twice.

Patrick Hinds: Stan will connect you. He’s the guy.

Susan Lambert Hatem: That's amazing. Yes. And he just. I mean, it's so funny because he. I sent his, one of his plays to my sister who does theater in Charlotte, and so.

Patrick Hinds: Oh, wow.

Susan Lambert Hatem: He just flew down from his New York shows for the opening night of Meet and Greet, which was part of a one-night, a night of one-acts that my sister produced. And I had a short play, much shorter than Meet and Greet, but in the same night.

Patrick Hinds: That's amazing.

Susan Lambert Hatem: So we got to actually see each other sort of outside podcasting, which was really fun.

Patrick Hinds: He's the best. He's really fun to hang out with. The way that we got Wendy Malick for the podcast was I went to see the reading of his show here in New York, and they, you know, the cast all went out after, and I had brought some listeners, and we all went to the same bar. And Stan, I was like, oh, my God, I love Wendy Malick so much. She's like, she's right over here. Come meet her. I'm like, no! Don't you, don't you bring me over there. He brought me right over to Wendy Malick, and she could not have been cooler. She was so nice.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Oh, wow. That is so great. That is so great. Yes. Okay, I'm gonna hit up Stan. They're so good together. It's sort of amazing. Yeah.

Patrick Hinds: Genius. Yeah. I mean, Kate & Allie is a staple.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah.

Sharon Johnson: Because I always think of, you know, you work in an office. You don't get along with everybody, but you have to work with them.

Patrick Hinds: Exactly.

Sharon Johnson: Make it work. And that's exactly what's happening on set. They're there to do a job. They go do their job. They go their separate ways.

Patrick Hinds: Exactly.

Sharon Johnson: Nothing wrong with that.

Patrick Hinds: Nothing wrong with that. Totally.

Sharon Johnson: Yeah. Anyway.

Susan Lambert Hatem: You don't have to love everyone.

Patrick Hinds: Exactly.

Susan Lambert Hatem: But we want. We want them to love each other.

Patrick Hinds: Yeah.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Because--

Patrick Hinds: Well, that's the other thing. We want them to love each other. Right. That's right.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah. We want those. Those relationships to be true and golden.

Patrick Hinds: Forever and ever.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Forever and ever. So, as you know, it's because you guys are doing a-- You are walking through. I know you're bringing on super great guests and all that stuff, too. So how do you balance the-- Okay, here's when we're going to do walkthrough episodes, and here's when we're going to do interview.

Patrick Hinds: We do interviews when we need a week off. Like, that's really what it comes down to, you know? Like, I think we do 46 episodes a year. And so, you know, we've got six more weeks to fill that we don't have to fill contractually, but we want to. We want the listeners to have something. So we'll usually slot an interview in those spots. Or, you know, Jen, my co-star, is very fancy and very busy, and so when she was going through Tony season or when her show was opening on Broadway and she needed some time off, that was when we would sort of slot in some interviews.

Sharon Johnson: So you're-- So since you're doing Golden Girls, obviously has already aired, and I would imagine that true crime podcasts, some of those were relatively new and you wanted to kind of stay on top of them. How do you like the difference between dealing with a show that's kind of already out there as opposed to the one that gives you kind of the pressure of, okay, we need to talk about this today?

Patrick Hinds: You know, that's a great question. And I'll say Golden Girls is easier. I mean, it really is. Like, I, I, you know, I watch the show, I take my notes. It probably takes me about three hours to get through the episode, taking my notes and, you know, really thinking about it. But then I just get to come and sit down and, like, chat with my friend, you know. And with True Crime Obsessed, it's much more-- Though I've been doing it for nine years, and I know exactly what I'm doing on recording days, for True Crime Obsessed, it's a very, it's the same thing. I have never gotten bored with it. I love it very much. There's a lot to think about. You know, I mean, there's, there's. It's certainly-- It's a more thoughtful podcast in the sense of, number one, we want to make sure we're covering-- You know, Gillian, my co-host, puts together our schedule and she works so, so hard on making sure that we are covering not just-- I don't mean to sound glib, but like, not just cases of, like, murdered white women. You know, it's. It's so important to us to be covering, you know, obviously so much more than that. So that's number one. Number two, we never censor ourselves. We never really have to be-- But we want to be very mindful about the way we talk about things. Like, you know, we-- We try not to talk about politics, though. Everybody knows where we stand. Sometimes it's really hard to do that, but we want t-- These true crime themes are pretty universal and we want to be big tent in that sense. We, you know, obviously we want to be true to ourselves and, and what we believe. And there are certain, like, there are, you know, if. If we had sensible gun laws in this country, I think we would probably have half the episodes to cover that we have. And there's no way around talking about that. But there's, you know, there's just more thought put into it because we're dealing with real people who've suffered real tragedy. There needs to be a reason for us to be talking about these cases that goes beyond any sort of just pure entertainment value. So, you know, it's just a-- It's a bit more of a thought exercise, I think.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah, that makes. That makes sense to me, you know, because again, Golden Girls is all made up.

Patrick Hinds: Yeah, yeah, it's made up, it's fun, it's light. And certainly there's like, there's. There's plenty of, like. We just covered an episode in season three where Blanche's daughter comes to visit and she's gained a lot of weight. And so that was the thing that we were like, we're not gonna-- Obviously we're not gonna play any of the overweight jokes. We're not gonna talk about that stuff. But we-- I wanna talk about the theme. You know, Jen and I both have struggled with our weight all of our lives, and we wanted to talk about why this episode is particularly distasteful, you know, and like, and why, an episode like that would never get made today. So it was kind of a heavy episode. It was not your, you know, your normal knee-slapping, good time that it usually is.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah, there's a lot of, you know, the 50 things to love about The Golden Girls and 50 facts and all this stuff. We're also have an episode. Here are the 10 things we don't like about The Golden Girls.  

Patrick Hinds: Yeah.  

Susan Lambert Hatem: And one of them is. And that's. It's very. We've seen it a lot in 80s TV, particularly 80s sitcoms. It's kind of mean.  

Patrick Hinds: Yeah.  

Susan Lambert Hatem: It is. It is, you know, making fun of people and, you know, their abilities, disabilities and—

Patrick Hinds: Yeah.  

Susan Lambert Hatem: Sizes and shapes.  

Patrick Hinds: We were talking about like, you know, like this actress got hired because she was a larger bodied woman. And so she's on set all week hearing these jokes at her expense. And it's like, you know, we talk about that with Bea Arthur all the time.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Because she also had to basically hear how ugly she was and how, you know--

Patrick Hinds: Which is insane. She was a beautiful woman with an amazing figure. So I do kind of like that suspension of disbelief that like it isn't true, so I guess we can laugh at it. But even still, like, there are stories like Jim Colucci will tell stories about Bea Arthur sort of blowing up in the last season, being like, you guys have been calling me fat and ugly for seven years. And I, I've had it. You know. And it's-- Yeah, you're right. I mean, it's hard to talk about that stuff.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah, it's. It's sort of interesting that like so many things hold up and then, and then other aspects-- And again, we've looked at Mama's Family. We've looked at, you know, and that I remember as a kid going, this show is too mean for me.

Patrick Hinds: Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yeah, it's true.

Susan Lambert Hatem: These people are awful to each other.

Patrick Hinds: I know.

Susan Lambert Hatem: It's funny in a skit, but--  

Patrick Hinds: It's funny because, you know, there's that show Veep, that I absolutely love, but it took me probably six times trying to watch it to get into it because it's the same. It's so mean. You know, it's just like constantly mean. So like. Yeah, it's a-- You want to say that a show like that would never get made today. I think episodes like the Blanche's Daughter episode wouldn't get made today, I would hope.

Susan Lambert Hatem: But it, but it was sort of interesting because I do think in many ways it was reflective so often of family dynamics which were often mean, particularly at that time. And I think for Mama's Family in particular, it really resonated with sort of the mother-daughter dynamic of you're not good enough and we don't have a great relationship, but I love you. But I also.

Patrick Hinds: Yep.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Cut you down all the time and then--

Patrick Hinds: Yeah.  

Susan Lambert Hatem: You're mad at me.  

Patrick Hinds: Yeah. And. And that's, you know, the, that. That's like the, the dynamic of, of the relationship with Blanche and her daughter as well, you know.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah.

Patrick Hinds: And then of course adding on top of that the abusive boyfriend who, like, Blanche isn't allowed to say anything about, you know, like the, the— The, the-- What's the word? Conflicts is there, but it's a little. You're being a little bit hit over the head with it, you know.

Susan Lambert Hatem: So what do you think it is that is so long lasting about Golden Girls? Like, it really does resonate at a-- It just does resonate and both for the queer community, but for everybody and, and sort of-- I think there's been a resurgence, but I think it's always been there and it's just now being fed. Right?

Patrick Hinds: Yeah.

Susan Lambert Hatem: But it's 40 years old.

Patrick Hinds: Yeah. I mean, there's something about. In my opinion, it was brilliant writing. So the thing about The Golden Girls is that it was the first show to really show four women as the leads of a show. But, but even more importantly than that, it was four older women. So the characters are older, but the actresses are also older, which means they are incredibly seasoned actors. So it's like you're getting this combination of amazing writing, meeting these incredibly seasoned and time-tested actors in the three of them. Of course, we know Estelle Getty was pretty new to television when, when she did The Golden Girls, but she was a quick study and she got up to speed really fast. But I think it's, it's pretty much that combination. It was groundbreaking. It was just incredible writing with incredible skill. And I think that maybe it tells us something else about how not great most TV is, you know, and how like, the cream really rises to the top and like, you know, it, i is all of that wrapped in the fact that like, it reminds all of us of our mothers and grandmothers. It's a comfort show for all of us. It's a-- I think especially now because it is so long ago and it looks like a lot. There's a nostalgia factor to it. It's also a show you want to watch with your friends. If you have friends in your life who've never seen it, you're like, oh my God, come and watch it. Like, you know, The Golden Girls has been streamed over a billion times on Hulu, over a billion times. And it's because people are watching and, rewatching and bringing new people in and rewatching with them. It's just. It's a communal experience.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah, I love that it's communal experience. I'm gonna say, having covered The Facts of Life, that it was before The Golden Girls. Four women. And in fact, it move-- It was moved to Saturday night. And one of the reasons that's been discussed is to help launch The Golden Girls. Golden Girls launched after Facts of Life the first time it showed. And I didn't realize that ‘til we were covering Facts of Life. And I was like, oh, our little ladies, our little baby ladies led the way.

Patrick Hinds: I mean, that's incredible. So like, Facts of Life so the The Golden Girls can fly. That's incredible. I love it.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I thought that was like, incredible because again, it's so rare to have four women lead a show now. I mean, there is Sex in the City and And Just Like That. But those, you know, I. You're hard pressed to name another show that's all women.

Patrick Hinds: Yeah, I mean, there was Girls.

Sharon Johnson: There was—Oh, god, the show that I didn't like on ABC, Desperate Housewives. Mainly, I didn't like the, didn't like the title more than anything else.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I actually weirdly liked that show a lot. It was more Cherry at, you know, was firing on all-- It was such a soapy soap, delicious fun.

Patrick Hinds: Yeah. And you have like this new Ryan Murphy series with Kim Kardashian hat's all women that everybody hates. So, you know, you can't win.

Sharon Johnson: I haven't seen that yet, but I am going to give it a try.

Patrick Hinds: Yeah.

Sharon Johnson: Hope for the best.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I'm out.

Patrick Hinds: My thing is, I want. I love Sarah Paulson. I love Jessica Lange. I love Glenn Close. I want Kim Kardashian to be awful. Give me that performance art, Kim Kardashian. Give me that performance art.

Sharon Johnson: Yeah, I kind of do too.

Patrick Hinds: You know, like, let me have it. I'm here for it.

Susan Lambert Hatem: No, I'm out.  

Patrick Hinds: Yeah.  

Susan Lambert Hatem: But have at it, you two.

Patrick Hinds: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And then before we go, I just want to talk real quick about your book, Failure is Not Not an Option, which every time I type, it gets changed.

Patrick Hinds: Listen, my publisher fought me on that title so hard. They were like, no one's gonna get it right. Everyone's gonna get it wrong. You're maybe the second interviewer I've ever had that really nailed the title. Because the, the, the joke is everybody knows failure is not an option. And the, the joke of the title is like, failure's not not an option. You know what I mean? So, yes.

Sharon Johnson: It’s a fantastic book. It was such a fun, interesting, funny, heartbreaking. All the feels. It was all the-- So good. Yes.

Patrick Hinds: Thank you so much. I. You know, it was such a labor of love writing that book. And, you know, it's mostly true. And, you know, I. It's so funny. There's a chapter, I think it's chapter two about, like, that boy that I met when I went to that theater camp and fell in love with. And he stayed in my life for a really long time. And then, you know, we. We had a falling out. And then he came back into my life just as the book was coming out, and he sort of had, like, a hard time with that. And then, like, he sort of drifted away again, and he's just reconnected with me. Like, it's. I, you know, it was. It was so nice to be able to tell these stories. The idea really was to write something that was going to make people laugh, that maybe-- I was not trying to teach any lessons. This was not about teaching lessons. But this really was about if some broke, chubby, gay, effeminate kid from, you know, nowhere, Cape Cod, Massachusetts, can work hard, not be that smart, but, like, land on his feet and do pretty well in life then, like, literally anybody can. You know?

Susan Lambert Hatem: Well, I'm gonna think you're pretty smart. I'm gonna argue some of that, but okay.  

Patruck Hinds: Thank you. Maybe street smart, maybe street smart.  

Susan Lambert Hatem: But, but I, I do want to hear a little more about why Bea Arthur hated you.

Patrick Hinds: Oh, man. Bea Arthur hated my guts. So I was tasked with being her chaperone for a weekend when she was coming to my college to receive an award. And I lied to all my friends about this internship I had at a radio station where I was pretending that I was meeting these celebrities all the time. So they were like, oh, my God, a celebrity's coming to town. You can be her hosting guide. And so I, you know, I went to the airport to meet her, and just on sight, she hated me. I know now that she hates flying. I didn't know that then. She had just gotten off a very long flight. She was annoyed with me from the beginning. I brought her three dozen red roses. She didn't want them. She thought my name was Peter. And I just spent the whole night just trying to get her to like me. And the harder I tried to get her to like me, the less she liked me. She eventually started drinking. Halfway through the night, we stopped at a restaurant for dinner. She's just, like, downing double shots of Absolute Citron vodka did not make her like me anymore.

Susan Lambert Hatem: It didn’t kind of color the room a little bit glow?

Patrick Hinds: Not in the way that I hoped. Nope. And, I probably got needier and more annoying the more I realized how off the rails it was getting, which just made her hate me even more. But, you know, we came back together a couple years later. I. She came into a restaurant that I was working at, and she remembered me, and she invited me to her table for a drink, and I went and we had a very nice chat. So it all works out in the end.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Oh, that, that's a lovely end to that story.

Patrick Hinds: Yeah. But she was not a fan.

Susan Lambert Hatem: She was, you know, just leaving me alone is not not an option, too.

Patrick Hinds: Exactly. Getting the hell away from me, you loud, gay weirdo, is not not an option.

Susan Lambert Hatem: But, I mean, and. And Jim talks about, like, there's a. I think a lot of people hit that hard exterior. That.

Patrick Hinds: Yes.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Cover that is her protection. Right? Like, this is, don't come at me because I don't trust you, you know?

Patrick Hinds: Yeah. I mean, as Jim says, like, she seems to be a kind of quiet, insular person. And, and gay men especially have a big reaction to her because she's such an icon to us. And I feel like she doesn't always know how to handle that, and we should be better about not doing that to people, you know? So, like, yeah, it's. It can be not a good marriage.

Susan Lambert Hatem: But I, I. I'm so happy it had a happy ending, too.

Patrick Hinds: It did, yeah. It had a nice happy ending.

Susan Lambert Hatem: But that is fantastic. Before we go, I have one last question. I don't know if Sharon has one, but any other 80s TV Lady shows that you like that you think might be worth a deep dive if, you know, when you get done with Golden.

Patrick Hinds: Girls, you know, I loved Sisters. Did you all ever watch Sisters?

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yes. We haven't covered it on the show but--

Patrick Hinds: I loved that show. I'm trying to think. I was more of a 90s TV watcher. You know, like, Will & Grace was my, my other favorite. But to be honest, I've never been a huge TV person. So, you know, I've always worked at night. That was my thing before. Now I've got a kid, and, you know, I was in college, and so I didn't. Yeah, I was never. The shows that I loved were Golden Girls. I loved Empty Nest. I loved Nurses. I think Nurses is amazing.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Oh, yeah.

Patrick Hinds: Designing Women, of course.

Susan Lambert Hatem: We got to talk with Linda Bloodworth-Thomason, which was amazing.

Patrick Hinds: That's amazing.

Susan Lambert Hatem: We got to meet her after she won her Writers Guild Award, because we were, had been invited by the Writers Guild to come say hello to her backstage, which was absolutely amazing. Absolutely amazing. It was, that was one of our very special, like, I was like, I can't believe she said yes to us.

Patrick Hinds: Well, you know, Gillian and I, many years ago, made a podcast about My So-Called Life where we did an episode by episode rewatch. And in the end, for our last episode, Winnie Holtzman joined us. And so, like, that was incredible.

Susan Lambert Hatem: That is incredible. That is amazing. Love My So-Called Life. Yeah, we went on Matt Baum’s rewatch. He did a rewatch and was.

Patrick Hinds: I mean, everybody should make a rewatch because there's so much to be mined in there, you know? There's so much.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah. I think pop culture is endlessly fascinating, and I think. And so I, and particularly the things that we love, right?

Patrick Hinds: Yes.  

Susan Lambert Hatem: Like, it's meaningful and, and it gives, it does give comfort. I'm so thrilled that you guys are doing a deep dive. Whenever we start on a show, I go look for podcasts, and so that's sort of how I found your podcast.

Patrick Hinds: Oh, I love that.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And then, and then, and then I remembered that you had done. I was like, oh, that's, that's the Theatre People guy.

Patrick Hinds: Yeah, that’s me. I always love it when people remember me from that. Not many people remember that anymore. But I'm so glad that you liked it.

Susan Lambert Hatem: So, so I'm big fan and so, thank you so much.

Patrick Hinds: My absolute pleasure.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Where can people find you?

Patrick Hinds: You can follow me on Instagram and TikTok. It's at Patrick Hinds underscore. My last name is H-I-N-D-S. You can also follow Golden Girls Deep Dive and True Crime Obsessed Podcast.

Sharon Johnson: That's fantastic.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Thank you so much. This has been a wonderful Monday.

Patrick Hinds: This has been so wonderful. It's so nice chatting with you both. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Thank you.

Sharon Johnson: We want to make sure when we're recommending products that it's something we like. And that's exactly what Cozy Earth is all about. They've been on Oprah's Favorite Things list for years. We're talking about buttery stuff, bamboo sheets, and amazing pajamas. And we can offer you the best discount. 41% off. It's the ultimate in luxury sleep. Go to 80s TV Ladies my deals link in the show notes to see all our 8TL deals Use promo code 80sTVLadies. That's 8-0-S-T-V-L-A-D-I-E-S.

Sharon Johnson: We need to shout out, the incredible Catherine O' Hara who we lost too soon on January 30, 2026 at the age of 71. Ms. O' Hara was an Emmy Award-winning actress and writer as well as a producer. She may be best known to 80s audiences for SCTV and the SCTV network. More recently, she's probably well known for playing Moira Rose on Schitt's Creek.

Susan Lambert Hatem: She is also well known for her comic turns in movies like Home Alone, Home Alone 2, Beetlejuice and the Christopher Guest movies like Waiting for Guffman, A Mighty Wind and Best in Show. She's so hilarious in those.

Sharon Johnson: She began her career at Second City in Toronto, Canada. She started in television in the 70s in Canada. She broke out in the 70s and into the 80s writing and performing in SCTV. She was a guest star on The Larry Sanders Show, Tales from the Crypto, Outer Limits, MADtv, 30 Rock and Modern Family.

Susan Lambert Hatem: She also did significant roles obviously in The Studio and Last of Us. Most recently she was a voice actress on everything from the Completely Mental Misadventures of Ed Grimley in the 80s all the way through the 2020s in projects like Wild Robot and Last Kids on Earth.

Sharon Johnson: She was also, from everything we hear, a truly wonderful person and mom. She will be greatly missed.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Greatly. I’m very sad.

Sharon Johnson: In today's Audio-ography you can find The Golden Girls Deep Dive podcast at goldengirlsdeepdive.com.

Susan Lambert Hatem: You can find Patrick Hinds at PatrickTours.com and his book Failure Is Not Not an Option at patricktours.com/the-book. Or you can just search for that book title. He's also on Instagram at PatrickHindshinds_.

Sharon Johnson: The links, as always, will be in our description. Golden Girls is streaming on Hulu, Philo, oh yeah, and on Disney+. Unless you gave that one up because, you know, they caved.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I keep that in just because I'm still mad about it. You can also buy it at Apple TV, Amazon. You can buy it on YouTube. Sometimes you can just find some episodes on YouTube. DVDs can be found on eBay, Walmart, and often from your local library.

Sharon Johnson: Next up, it's going to be getting the band back together. We'll be bringing the 90s TV Babies in to talk about The Golden Girls.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I can't wait. This one's going to be off the chain. I have been waiting for this almost since the very first 90s TV Babies. And so you know, this one's going to be super fun Golden Girls time.

Sharon Johnson: Absolutely. And as always, we hope 80s TV Ladies brings you joy and laughter and lots of fabulous new and old shows to watch, all of which will lead us forward toward being amazing Ladies of the 21st century.

Susan Lambert Hatem [sings]: Thank you for being the friends.

Sharon Johnson: See you next time.

Bruce Springstein [singing]: Now they say they're here to, uphold the law but they trample on our rights. If your skin is black or brown, my friend, you can be questioned or deported on sight. In our chants of ‘ICE, out now’ our city's heart and soul persists. Through broken glass and bloody tears on the streets of Minneapolis. Oh, I'm Minneapolis, I hear your voice singing through the bloody mist. Here in our home they kill and roamed in the winter of 26. We'll take our stand for this land and the stranger in our midst. We'll remember the names of those who died on the streets of Minneapolis.

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