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Maude's Dilemma: Abortion, Healthcare, and the Fight for Women's Rights | Episode 410

Melissa Roth: Weirding Way Media.

Amy Englehardt [Singing]: 80s TV Ladies, So sexy and so pretty. 80s TV Ladies, Steppin’ out into the city. 80s TV Ladies, often treated kind of sh-[wolf whistle]. Working hard for the money in a man’s world. 80s TV Ladies!

Melissa Roth: Welcome to 80s TV Ladies where we look back at female-driven television shows from the 1970s and 80s and where it's great to be 60 and still relevant. I'm your producer Melissa Roth with your hosts, Susan Lambert Hatem and Sharon Johnson.

Sharon Johnson: Hello, I'm Sharon.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And I'm Susan. And Melissa.  

Melissa Roth: Yes?

Susan Lambert Hatem: You are still relevant.

Melissa Roth: Oh, thank you.

Susan Lambert Hatem: We are all relevant and vital and important. We are the Golden Girls. Hey, Sharon.

Sharon Johnson: Yes, Susan.

Susan Lambert Hatem: You're relevant too. Do you think there are episodes of television broadcast in the 1970s and 80s that could not or would not be put on network or even streaming today because they were too controversial?

Sharon Johnson: You know, I'd say definitely things that would not go on network today, but streaming I think, is another animal, if you will. I think that there seem to be fewer,roadblocks there because people pay money every month to access streaming services. So I think that it would be easier there. But who knows at the end of the day, because 10 years ago I would have said since we were basically not really talking about streaming, but again, with just network television, cable television, absolutely. There's tons of stuff that would never make it back on the air. But now with so much pushback against human rights, women's rights and basic healthcare these days, I still think that one of the topics that would still be really tough is abortion.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah, I think people shy away from that. And particularly now. Because someone might be upset.

Sharon Johnson: Exactly.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Someone might be upset. But you know, it's shocking and kind of crazy making to think about how far we've come just to discover how much we've slid backwards. And I think looking back at television for me is a great way to kind of reflect all about that. Two steps forward, one step back or two steps forward 15 steps back or one step forward 50 years step back.

Sharon Johnson: We’re not at the 50-year step back yet. There is still a-- I think we still are further than we were.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Than we are back.

Sharon Johnson: But we are, we do seem to be inching our way back to beyond where we, where we started with some of these things.

Susan Lambert Hatem:: Yes.

Sharon Johnson: So today we'll be talking about vital women's health care and how it's being portrayed in television and been portrayed in television over the years, particularly in two special episodes of the Norman Lear hit TV sitcom Maude.

Susan Lambert Hatem: That's right. It's Maude's Dilemma Day. It's Maude's Dilemma Day. I don't even know why I wrote that. It's Maude's Dilemma Day. It's impossible to say that three times fast. Maude's Dilemma Day

Melissa Roth: Maude's Dilemma Day, Dilemma Day, Dilemma Day.

Susan Lambert Hatem: What a strange name. But, you know, but I think it is today. Today I'm declaring it Maude's Dilemma Day.  

Melissa Roth: I like it.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Okay.

Sharon Johnson: So we're bringing in an expert to help us put some context on this. Jennie Wetter is the director of the Repro's Fight Back Initiative at the Population Institute. She fights for reproductive rights and is the co-host of Repro's Fight Back Podcast.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Repro's Fight Back is a multi-award winning deep dive podcast into reproductive health and justice around issues like abortion, birth control, sex education, women, and LGBTQ rights, and all around gender equality healthcare for everyone.

Sharon Johnson: Come on, who would be against that? Gosh.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I don't know. Nobody, nobody. Everybody wants to be in charge of their healthcare.

Sharon Johnson: Jennie is originally from Wisconsin and has lived in Washington, D.C. for over 20 years. We are so thrilled to welcome you to 80s TV Ladies, Ms. Jennie Wetter.

Jennie Wetter: Thank you so much for having me.

Sharon Johnson: Yeah, absolutely.

Jennie Wetter: I mean, I love getting to talk 80s TV.

Sharon Johnson: Oh, fantastic.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Okay, first, I just want to know a little bit more about you. how did you start with your podcast? And, you've been doing it since 2019? That's amazing.

Jennie Wetter: Yeah, so we started actually in 2017, so it feels like it's been forever. I mean, again, working on sexual and reproductive health, it means, like, I've aged a thousand years since then, but-- So I work for a nonprofit called the Population Institute. And during the first go round of the Trump administration, there were so many attacks happening when it came to sexual and reproductive health and rights that it was so hard for people to stay in touch and stay on top of what was happening. And something that, like, I don't know if you've worked for an organization that has a board, sometimes they throw out ideas and they're like, this would be a great idea. And my boss came into my office and was like, so they think we should do, we should talk about this podcast thing. And I was like, I don't know about that. I don't think I want to do that. And after lots of pushing and pulling and really pushing me into it, he gave me the latitude to kind of figure out what it would look like if I were to do it. So we decided that we wanted to do a podcast where people could come and we would do, like, a deep dive onto what the issue of the day was, talk about what was happening and what was going on, and then not end there, right? Like, not be doom and gloom. And this is the terrible thing that the administration is doing. But always end each episode with what can you do? How can you get involved in this fight? And how can you fight back? We started out bi-weekly, and now we are a weekly podcast, quickly approaching 300 episodes. So, I could never have imagined that's where we would be now. I could not imagine eight years later, we would still be doing it. But as much as I got pushed into it, I love doing it. I love getting to talk about all these issues. And as exhausting and frustrating and heartbreaking as it is to work in this field, I'm really passionate about it, and I do have a lot of hope. And I know that's something a lot of people really kind of always ask about is like, how can you keep doing this? And, like, I know we're gonna win. I know. I know we will get there. Do I think it's tomorrow? Probably not, but. But if I didn't have that hope or faith that we could get there, I couldn't do this work.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah, it's amazing work. It's needed work. And I love that the podcast is trying to find some joy and some actionable steps that people can take. And so that is-- I appreciate that about your podcast a lot. It's informative, and it's also not like, oh, my God, I want to kill myself.

Jennie Wetter: I have to say, there was an 80s TV lady type tie-in when we were first thinking through what our theme song or whatever would be like at the beginning, All that kept going through my head was the episode of Golden Girls where they're going on. I think they're going on a cruise, and they're in the drugstore and are trying to get condoms. And Rose is, like, not catching on what they're talking about. When Dorothy's like, hey, can you grab that? And Dorothy is finally, like, condoms, condoms, condoms, condoms. I want that in there somehow. But I was told we probably couldn't do that.

Susan Lambert Hatem: We probably couldn't do that. That is amazing. And it is sort of interesting. ‘Cause when we were first trying to figure out what we were gonna talk about, I was like, okay, is it gonna be Golden Girls? And there are those moments. I love so much that they are so sexually active in the show and that, that feels groundbreaking just in and of itself for the time. And even now.

Sharon Johnson: Well, especially because I think even now people don't think about women at that stage of their life as still being sexually active. Then I'm sure there was a lot of pearl clutching, at least maybe initially. But yeah, life goes on. And, it's been interesting to realize that I'm older than they are in the show.  

Jennie Wetter: Right?

Sharon Johnson: But it's all good. It's all good.

Susan Lambert Hatem: It's all good.

Jennie Wetter: I think they said, like, And Just Like That they're like the same age as The Golden Girls were when it started. Like, that is wild to think about.

Susan Lambert Hatem: It is wild to think about. And we, you know, it's a different. It's. That's where you see a different time is, you know, what people think of as old has shifted, which is, you know, good for me, it's working out. But, but it, it does make you think about, you know, why we-- Other things haven't completely shifted more. Right? Like, hey, we got that. Could we just have everything else that we used to have? But, so I'm, I'm kind of always curious what, why it's important to talk about abortion and reproductive rights and what you think the podcast and, and talking about it does.

Jennie Wetter: I think, and this is something that actually will tie into the episode that we're going to talk about is even just saying the word abortion is-- It shouldn't be, but sometimes is like, kind of groundbreaking. Like so many people use euphemisms or woman has a right to choose. And not talking about abortion as healthcare or abortion as a right in and of itself. Like, there's a lot of talking around the issue. And when you're silent like that or like talking around something, it breeds stigma, right? It feels like there's secrecy, there's shame built into it. Like I shouldn't talk about it. Like, whisper, whisper, whisper. It builds this sense of shame and stigma. And so it is so important that we talk about it. And so there are groups that do great work getting abortion stories out there. There's a great group called We Testify that really does a lot of work making sure that people's stories are told and everybody's stories are told, right? So often the stories that get in the news with like, with so many other things, right? You'll see like an upper-class white woman, right? Those were kind of the faces that were centered during like the Texas lawsuits and stuff. And. But that's not necessarily the face of abortion. It's a face of abortion. But it's so important that you see the breadth and depth of who needs access to this care and that we're being smart and intentional in our language. There is so much anti-abortion rhetoric that we are all just like constantly steeped in. Right? It's just like around whether it was the talking about the so-called heartbeat bans, right. That creates like an image in your head as to what we're talking about. And that's not what we're talking about. Right? Like a fetus at six weeks old is like, really, it's a zygote, it doesn't have a heart. It's just like some cardiac polar activity in the cells that will eventually become a heart. But it gives you a different vision in your head of what we're talking about. So it's easier to create that shame and stigma around it. and again, we don't talk about different reasons people may need an abortion. It's often seen as like, there's good abortions and bad abortions. So if you're not telling all the stories, you're creating shame. Like if you're only talking about the woman's health is in danger or there's a fetal anomaly or stuff or something like that. If you're not talking about all of the abortions and all of the reasons a person may choose to access that healthcare, it really creates this idea of like, these are the good ones that are worth protecting. And then we don't care about all these other people. And that's not true. Right? We need to make sure that everybody has access to the care. And it also helps us show what kind of barriers people can run into when they try and access that care. Because I think there's a lot of, lack of understanding of how complicated it can be. Because you'll hear about maybe a barrier talked about as one thing, but it's this sea of barriers. It's this obstacle course you need to navigate. So if you're a young person, you maybe need to get parental consent. Well, that means your parent needs to sign a paper and agree. What if they don't support you? What if you need to then get a judicial bypass? What if your state has a waiting period? So now you have to get your parents to sign off, you have to wait, you have to go to the doctor twice, your clinic may not be very close. You have to travel to that clinic to get the care. You have to go twice. Because now there's a waiting period, so you have to make that trip twice. It may not be 24 hours. Some states it's 72 hours. That's, that's a long trip. So if you're not talking about all of these things that people can run into, cost is another real concern. It's not cheap. It's often not covered by insurance. A lot of people who are getting abortions are living at the poverty level. I think it's. Oop, I lost that number. Where'd it go? 41% of people getting an abortion are below the poverty level and an additional 30 are only up to 200% of the federal poverty level. So talking about the cost and being able to pay for an abortion is really important. Especially if you're thinking you need to add on travel, you may need to fly now if your state is far away from a state with access,. You may need childcare, you may need a hotel. All of a sudden this like maybe $500 abortion procedure could be much more expensive because you're having to go and get it. So if people don't understand the complexities of what that looks like, it's really easy to kind of look past it and be like, okay, so it's banned in Texas, whatever, and not understand all of the hoops that people are having to go to try and access care that is life changing and life-saving healthcare.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yes.

Sharon Johnson: Yeah. The right has done a very good job over the last 50 years to change the words that we use about abortion as they do about a lot of things. It's not just this, they've been very, very good about that and also to push whatever context they think will sell best. So that's why we have this myth about the late -erm abortions, et cetera, that people horrify a lot of people and not understanding what that is. And that's a very, that's not what we're talking about. As you said, we're talking about healthcare. At the end of the day, we're talking about healthcare. That's what it is. It's a procedure related to your health. It's healthcare.

Jennie Wetter: And if people wanna understand, like abortions, later in pregnancy are complicated, they happen for many reasons. Most states have some sort of gestational ban. So like, you may think you're in a protected state, but 41 states have a gestational ban. So something could go wrong in your pregnancy or for whatever reason you need an abortion later in pregnancy. You most likely are gonna have to travel to get that care. and not to take up time here, but if you, if  so people want to learn more about abortion later in pregnancy, we did a six-part series on it, this summer. So people can definitely go and check out to learn more because I think that is one of those areas that there is still so much shame and stigma even within people who are supportive of abortion. There's still kind of that lack of understanding about why it's necessary and will always be necessary, and why gestational bans are harmful at any stage of the pregnancy. So, I definitely recommend checking out that series to your audience for anybody who wants to learn more.

Sharon Johnson: Excellent.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Cool. Well, we'll add it to our audio-ography with links, for sure. And so I am curious how, kind of-- I'm gonna, we're gonna jump off this and go into sort of how pop culture shaped you and what your relationship to television is, and what if you have any favorite shows or fun memories from childhood and beyond growing up.

Jennie Wetter: So I was like thinking about this before and I think there's like a couple that I really think of are interrelated. One, I grew up in a rural household, so I didn't have cable until later high school, we got DirecTV. So I grew up with just the four channels. Right? So it was a little limited in some ways. But I had a really deep connection to Reading Rainbow when I was younger. I loved that show. It fostered my love of reading between that and I don't know if y' all had this when you were young. The Iook It program in school. Okay. So it was like this program through Pizza Hut, that if you read. I don't remember what it was like 10 books. You got a free personal pan pizza.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Nice.

Jennie Wetter: So the intersection of those two things really fostered my love of reading, which has stuck with me through all the years. And I'm sure there are other things that have really influenced me. But thinking back, the ones I remember the most clearly are a couple shows, The Golden Girls, Designing Women, both of which I have rewatched recently as they have come on streaming. I also really loved A Different World, which I have not rewatched in a very long time. And I feel like I need to go and watch that again. But I really love that show.

Susan Lambert Hatem: We covered Different World.

Sharon Johnson: And Designing Women. We had Linda Bloodworth Thomason on as a guest, which was amazing.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And for A Different World, we had Susan Fales Hill who was the showrunner of that show for most of its run. And, she's also on And Just Like ‘This.’ And then we also had on director Neema Barnett, who was fantastic. I'm really happy with our-- We didn't get any of the cast, but we got a lot of everybody else, which was awesome.

Jennie Wetter: That's so awesome. It was one of those. I don't know, it just hit at the right time for me as I was, maybe starting to think about after school and thinking of college and things like that. I mean, I was still pretty young, but starting to think of that. So that was really fun. And yeah, Designing Women really stuck out with me. and re watching it, I was really amazed at how well a lot of it stood up and really stood the test of time. Again, I was watching this, like, in the first Trump administration. So it was kind of shocking, the number of times his name came up, like, and it was just like, took me on, like, all of a sudden it was like, ah!

Susan Lambert Hatem: I know. It's pretty shocking. Sometimes you're like, wow, okay.

Jennie Wetter: This, like, unprepared context.

Sharon Johnson: Yes. If you do have the opportunity to go back and listen to those episodes, do let us know what you think. We'd love to know what you have, what you think about our episodes of, in covering those shows.

Jennie Wetter: So I clearly didn't go back far enough, so I will have to go check them out.

Susan Lambert Hatem: That's right. You know, we don't have 300 episodes. 300 episodes, but we do have a lot. We're coming up on a hundred episodes.

Jennie Wetter: So that's so amusing.

Susan Lambert Hatem: It is. It feels like, wow, something that I was like, okay, Sharon, we're going to do 16. Because I hear that most podcasts are done by 12, and so I want to do 16.

Jennie Wetter: I feel you. 100 is huge. Like, I remember when we got to 100 and just. I never thought we would get there. Never imagined it would go on that long. So, I feel ya.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And it's been-- It's still fun.

Sharon Johnson: Oh, it's still great.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And we, you know, have had some of the most interesting conversations of my life, with everybody.

Sharon Johnson: And met, if you will. Mostly. Most of our guests have been through Zoom, but still, I feel like we've met them and had the chance to talk to some amazing women. Some men as well. We do have men on our show as well. But, I think one of the true joys for us has been the opportunity to talk with women who were making television in the 80s, many of whom are still doing it. That, names we didn't necessarily know. So it's been a joy. So, you know, anyway.

Susan Lambert Hatem: All right. And then there's Maude. Yes.

Sharon Johnson: Yes! And then there's Maud.

Jennie Wetter: Yes. Yes.

Susan Lambert Hatem: All right. So a little context for us around listeners about these particular. Two particular episodes that we're going to focus on today. Maude was a spinoff of All in the Family, and it started in 1972. Now, these episodes entitled Maude's Dilemma, Part One and Part Two, aired in season one, episodes nine and ten. And we're going to talk about that.

Jennie Wetter: That was shocking. I didn't realize it was season one.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I know. I was totally shocked. November 14th, and then November 21st, 1972. November 21st being my birthday. So I'm sure it was done for my fifth birthday. I don't know. I have to do some math. All right. Anyway. But, yeah, so I was. That was all very exciting to kind of realize that it was season one.

Sharon Johnson: Yeah, absolutely. It's such a great. Such a great show and such great episodes. So part one was written by Susan Harris. You recognize that name from Golden Girls.

Susan Lambert Hatem: This was when she was just a writer. I was like, oh, she was running the show. I was like, oh, no, she just wrote on this show.

Sharon Johnson: Anyway, it was written by Susan Harris, Austin Kalish, and Frank Tarloff, directed by Bill Hoban and starring Maude herself, Bea Arthur.  

Susan Lambert Hatem: And Bill Macy as her husband Walter, Conrad Bain as Arthur, Rue McClanahan as Vivian, and Adrienne Barbeau as Maude's adult daughter, Carol.

Sharon Johnson: So in the first episode, Maude discovers that she is pregnant at 47. She has to figure out how to tell the news to her husband Walter. And she obsesses over her dilemma as she plays cards with her neighbors Arthur and Vivian.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And everyone is shocked and trying to figure out what Maude should do. And part one ends with her telling Walter and him saying he will support whatever Maude wants to do, and no matter what happens, he's going to get a vasectomy so they don't have to go through this again.

Sharon Johnson: So before we get to part two, let's talk about this episode that, as was previously mentioned, originally aired November 14, 1972, and it aired without a lot of fanfare on its first run.

Susan Lambert Hatem: No, it just was one of the episodes in season one.

Jennie Wetter: Yeah, I think the other thing to, like, point out is really important about this. As you talked about, it came out in mid-November 1972, which means it came out before Roe v. Wade. Roe v. Wade was decided in January of 1973. So it was, like, almost exactly two months before Roe. So it was really important to talk about abortion access. They were based in New York. It was legal in New York. But Roe really changed the national landscape.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Absolutely. And that was them saying many times in this episode that, well, it's legal now. Snd saying it as if it's sort of. Well, that makes it. You gotta go. You gotta go take care of this. But Carol says it, Walter says it. It took me the first time I watched. I didn't really catch. Even though they say it twice, like, it's legal in New York. I was like, wait, was Roe. I don't. Ah, I was so confused. And then I realized. But, can I ask you if you could give us a little brief history of abortion rights in America? Sort of?

Jennie Wetter: Yeah. So, abortion was, if we go, like, way back. You know, you had nurse midwives who. And traditional healers. So abortion was, not illegal for a vast majority of U.S. history. If you looked at a lot of the writing, it was legal until the quickening. So, like, when you could feel the baby moving and feel it kicking. And when you started to get more medical doctors, more men involved in medicine, they want. They wanted to wrest that power away from the midwives. Right? Who were providing abortion services, often were, you know, women themselves, were women themselves and taking care of other women. And so that's when you started to see kind of these attacks on abortions kind of starting. And you had this hodgepodge kind of like we're back at now a little bit, where it was like state by state, it was restricted or illegal, at different points in pregnancy completely banned. I will note one really important thing to talk about as we were talking about how right now looks like then there is one huge difference. And that is there are safe options right now for getting abortion outside of the medical context. You can get abortion pills online. And so it may be illegal, but it would be medically safe. You can talk about legal risk, and everybody has to weigh that risk differently. Not everybody faces the same sort of criminalization. So it's definitely the things people have to weigh. But back pre-Roe, most likely if you got an abortion outside of where it was legal, it was probably gonna be an unsafe abortion. And so you were putting your health and possibly even your life at risk to get access to basic abortion care. So, again, when they were talking about it being legal in New York, that meant she could get a safe abortion, she could go to a doctor she knew and trusted and get the care she needed if she made that choice, versus if you were in another state, there would be that whisper network, right? Of here's where you can go and get care. And that's not to say there weren't people who were providing illegal, safe abortions, but it wasn't like a consistent access. People died accessing unsafe abortion care. And now that we have medication, abortion pills, that landscape is totally different. You aren't seeing people going and getting those same sorts of unsafe abortions because you can order pills from trusted suppliers online and get access to. But again, legal risk.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And you can travel, I think, a little bit easier than you used to. It's still frigging expensive and crazy.

Jennie Wetter: Right. And there's more networks now available, like abortion funds who can help you pay for that. That is something where I always tell people, if you, would like to donate to support, I strongly encourage supporting abortion funds. They are helping people pay for the service they need. Your healthcare, your ability to access healthcare, your ability to get an abortion should not depend on your wallet and what you can afford. Like, that is horrifying to think that that is the case. I mean, it's the case with so much of our healthcare right now. But, so, with abortion, you do see these networks of abortion funds that you can call and get support. They may not be able to pay for your whole abortion, but they can help you raise money and be able to help you travel and get out of state. There's lots of networks that can help with that.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Which is important and vital, as we know. I've worked with the TRR foundation, which Melissa started. We raised money which-- I'm going to give shout out to Melissa.

Melissa Roth: Our little kitchen table Foundation raised $15,000 to help women find transportation to where they needed to go.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And we sent it into particular parts of the country.  

Melissa Roth: Yes.  

Susan Lambert Hatem: So we were proud of that.

Melissa Roth: I am.

Susan Lambert Hatem: You should be.  

Melissa Roth: Thank you.  

Susan Lambert Hatem: In my little Google research, in 19, basically 72, 73, it looked like there were four states that had legalized abortion at that time of this show. Alaska, Hawaii, Washington and New York. But New York was the only one where you could come from another state and get an abortion. And they provided an abortion to anyone in need. There were clinics that provided abortions to anyone who needed them. sSo apparently in 1972, in New York, two thirds of the patients who got abortions were from out of state because people would come in from other states to get a safe abortion. Which I just thought was very interesting, again, considering this episode and that, you know, and how Maude was in a certain place of like, you know, her daughter, I think, in this episode says, you know, but. But it's legal. You voted for it. And she's like, yeah, but I wasn't pregnant then. I thought that was very interesting, you know.

Jennie Wetter: Yeah. And I think the other one was the, mom, like, abortion is not a dirty word anymore. Like, that's. That's how you grew up. That just screamed at me. Because it still is in so many ways. Right? I mean, we have stickers and merch that we have. Where we have abortion is a human right, not a dirty word. You still have politicians who are supposed to be our champions who don't say abortion. There was a tracker under the Biden administration of is he actually going to say the word? Or is he just going to talk about a woman's right to decide for herself, her right to choose or something like that. The, like, the longest way of not saying abortion. And so in many ways, we've come so far, but not at all. Like, I was keeping an ear on it as we were. As I was watching the episode of are they actually going to say the word abortion?

Susan Lambert Hatem: And they don't, do they?

Jennie Wetter: And we got like, two thirds of the way through the episode, and I was like, oh, man, we're going to get through this whole thing and they're not going to actually say the word. But they did. They did.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Okay, that's so funny, because--

Jennie Wetter: There was a lot of-- I feel like they maybe, like, were pushing it. Like, we can maybe say it once, because you could tell, like, they were definitely doing that yu can choose. You don't have to be pregnant. Like, there was a lot of, like, talking about it but not saying it. But they did say it, because I was definitely keeping an ear out for that. As it got longer and longer into the episode of, like, ooh, I wouldn't.

Sharon Johnson: Be surprised if the Standards and Practices Department at CBS basically said, yeah, you get to say it one time.

Jennie Wetter: And that was my guess.

Sharon Johnson: Walk around it the rest of the time. That wouldn't surprise me at all. I'm frankly just still astonished that it got on.  

Susan Lambert Hatem: I know.  

Sharon Johnson: 1972.

Jennie Wetter: Yeah. So the research I did before, because I was like, let me just, like, see what else has been written about it is they were doing the, Live in Front of a Studio Audience or Live in Front of the Studio-- And they tried to do this episode and they couldn't get a green light.

Susan Lambert Hatem: More recently, like, like just a year ago.

Jennie Wetter: Yeah.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah, yeah. No one wants to talk about anything anymore. All right, but before we go, because, because there's so much more to talk about. But I want to then talk about Maude's Dilemma, Part two, and then we can talk about both episodes because it was interesting that it was a two-parter because it was clearly a big subject and dramatic. Part two was written by Susan Harris, Irma Kalish and Austin Kalish. And we're going to talk about Irma afterwards because she's very interesting. Directed by Hal Cooper. Maude is still trying to figure out what to do. Carol pressures her mom a little bit that she should terminate the pregnancy. And she can. And we're reminded again, it's legal. Maude is convinced that Walter really wants the baby, even though she may not want to be a mother again. She thinks, like, he's never had a child and this can be his legacy.

Sharon Johnson: So taking advice from Carol, Vivian, Arthur, and finally Walter, who doesn't tell her he didn't have the vasectomy, but does tell her family that he does not want to be a father. So they wrote in a neighbor who had a lot of children, unruly ones, of course, and was very happy.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah, he does finally say he doesn't want to kids, which is huge. He has this beautiful, you know, mini-monologue about it, and it's kind of absolutely neat. Like you're like, again, a subject that doesn't get talked about a lot is people choosing not to have children and being happy with that choice. And it also being stigmatized at the time, and I think not as much now, but still now. And I don't know, the vasectomy gets talked about more. They say the word vasectomy way more than they say the word abortion because.

Sharon Johnson: Like most things having to do with men's genitalia, it's such a touchy subject that men don't want to go through. And men are the ones that write these things and produce them to a large extent. So I can see where that might be something that they just don't want to, want to deal with.

Susan Lambert Hatem: and it's interesting they wrote in the neighbor because the network wanted that. I was reading about that, that they needed a counterpoint. So there's a neighbor who's around the same age as Maude and she's got three or four kids, and she's pregnant, and she's excited to have another one. And then they make it funny because Maude is trying to yell at the kids who are unruly in the car and biting the dog or each other. And, you know, so. But what was, what was interesting about this was that as much there was a lot of discussion in both episodes about abortion with her friends, her daughter, her husband, and in. And then. But then Maude and Walter, while they talk, they're like, I'm going to be supportive of what you want. They actually haven't talked to each other. They just are assuming what the other person wants until the end. And that's how sitcoms get made. But it's also was interesting in the light of how to converse about this stuff.

Jennie Wetter: Right. You know who wasn't part of that conversation? Politicians. There were not politicians in there saying.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Hey, wait a second.

Sharon Johnson: What a concept.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Here's my opinion.

Sharon Johnson: Yeah, they didn't. They didn't walk down this, down the street talking to all the neighbors and saying, well, what should Maude do? Or go to their local, go to the mayor. What should Maude do? Whatever.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Here's. Here's what we tell you you have to do.

Sharon Johnson: Right.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And, yeah, I thought that was very interesting. And I. In the research that I did, it turns out it didn't start out as an abortion episode.

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Susan Lambert Hatem: It didn't start out as an abortion episode. It started out as a vasectomy episode. So one of the producers, Rod Parker, has said in an old interview and a recent interview that that there was a group called Zero Population Growth that announced they were going to give a $10,000 prize for comedies that had something to do with controlling population. And so everybody was coming up with pitches, for the show for vasectomies. And in the first draft, it was supposed to be Vivian who had gotten pregnant, leading into a discussion between Maude and Walter about him getting a vasectomy. But the script is so good, they're like, A, there's too many funny lines. They have to go to Maude. B, this is also about something else. But it was so funny because when I was watching the two-parter, there was a. I was like, wow, they are really going on and on about this vasectomy thing. Which is cool and makes sense, but it also felt a little bit like a different conversation because--

Jennie Wetter: Different.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah, it was like, are we really gonna have that kind. Is that really an emergency right now, Walter? Like, do you need to take care of that this week after the golf game?

Jennie Wetter: I could also hear the population part that snuck in with something Carol said, where she talked about. Now, I can't remember exactly how it was phrased, but something about like, if, you know, now that people, can decide to have abortions, like, you can decide how many kids you want and we won't all be living like sardines or something like that. Like. And I was like, oh, I hear that. I hear that population note in this episode,

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah, it's pretty interesting because you're like, wait, so no one's given a $10,000 prize to talk about abortion, but vasectomies are cool. But it was right about this time there's also-- I've discovered in my research that the sort of, the easier, no operation vasectomy was sort of invented. It was like literally 1970 or late 60s in China. They're like, oh, here's a way you can do it where you just kind of go in and no-scalpel vasectomy is what they called it.

Jennie Wetter: And that was just also interesting. So yes, the abortion storyline is a really important storyline in this episode. But there was like this kind of bodily autonomy, like sexual and reproductive health just general overtone. Because there was a little bit of like in episode part one when she, ah, was, was talking to Carol and Vivian about it, they were asking her, well, aren't you on birth control? And she says, well, it gave me migraines, so I quit using it. And so, you know, that gives you a chance to like sit and think, like, back then there weren't multiple options of where you could switch to find the one that works right for you. Like, there was just like those couple of options. And honestly, birth control hadn't been legal that long in and of itself. Right? So, it was, in Griswold v. Connecticut, it was approved for married people in the 60s, but it wasn't until 72 that it was expanded to non-married people. So like it had—

Susan Lambert Hatem: Isn't that crazy  

Jennie Weter: For more people.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Are you married?

Jennie Wetter: So, you know, there weren't a lot of options. So like, that also stuck out to me as like there she didn't have a lot of choice for if this method didn't work for me, there weren't a lot of the things that she could switch to at that point.

Sharon Johnson: You know, growing up at a time where reproductive options were so plentiful, it's just so odd to think that it really wasn't that long ago when these things did not exist. That people-- I don't know, you know, I don't know what most people did. But, but it just, it's. I'm. I feel fortunate to have grown up at a time when those things were available. I mean, obviously things have changed and gotten better in a lot of respects, but still there were options. There were options, yeah. That's amazing.

Jennie Wetter: I'm from an Irish Catholic family on my mom's side. She is one of 11. And I am an only child. Birth control, like, you can see the, like the course of how things change over, over time. Right? Like, birth control maybe was legal towards the end of my grandma's when she stopped having kids. My aunt Wendy's only like 15 years older than me. So, you know, and, and so that also stuck to with me to this episode of like, Maude was a grandmother.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yes.

Jennie Wetter: And so. And she had a grandson who was 8. And so I have some of that overlap in my family too, where with 11 kids. Right? Like my mom was in college when my aunt Wendy was pretty, was like very young. And others, my grandma and at least my, one of my aunts was pregnant at the same time.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah. It's, you know, in this. I have to say I didn't. I haven't watched a lot of Maude recently when I watched this. But it was also, you know, really sharp and funny. Like you're like, you know, and so. And they were touching on so many things because she does have a daughter in the home. Like, the daughter's living with her, so the grandson is living with her. They have little kids in the home. But she's also done. Right? Like, she's also like, I don't want to be a mother again. And I just. It was really super interesting episode. It was the first primetime television show to talk openly about abortion, and I thought that was pretty fascinating. The only other reference that I found to before that was-- And I couldn't find-- You can't really find a lot of 60s soap operas episodes. but in 1964, the soap opera Another World had a storyline in, I think, their first season, where a character became pregnant and is convinced by her bad boyfriend to get an illegal abortion. But she wasn't one of the main characters. And it sort of, again, was sort of, It was a bad boy. You know, it was scary. It was played for scary. But I thought that was interesting. And they seem to really have backed into the abortion part of it, which is so cool.

Jennie Wetter: And it still kind of stands out. Right? Like, it's not something that is still super common on shows. you know, I remember growing up a lot of, it may be discussed, but then there was like a convenient miscarriage or Grey's Anatomy. Like, it ended up being an ectopic pregnancy so she couldn't carry it anyway. Like, there was a lot of, people not getting the abortions. You're seeing more now, and you're seeing a broader array of what typical abortions look like, but still not quite matching the reality. Abortion on Screen always does a great job tracking all of that and has a great. Here's what was in this season and why it was good or bad. We Testify, that I mentioned earlier, has the Mife Awards that awards shows that do the best.

Susan Lambert Hatem: So do they give a $10,000 prize?

Jennie Wetter: I don't know.

Susan Lambert Hatem: We're not handing out money like that anymore.

Jennie Wetter: No.

Sharon Johnson: I did find it interesting in Grey's Anatomy that a couple of seasons later that the character of Christina did eventually have an abortion. And even though her husband disagreed, he went with her when she had the procedure. But I also found it interesting that they. Listen, I'm very much pro-choice, but come on, she's a doctor. She's already had one unplanned pregnancy that she didn't want. Why is this happening to her again as a person?  

Susan Lambert Hatem: Because it's a soap opera.  

Sharon Johnson: Exactly. Exactly, but--

Jennie Wetter: Well, I mean, no method of birth control is a 100%. So, like, abortions happen. I mean, unintended pregnancies happen.

Sharon Johnson: Sure.

Jennie Wetter: So, you know,  

Sharon Johnson: As someone who throughout the entirety of my adult life knew that I would, did not want to have children. Probably shouldn't say. I'm gonna. Anyway, I remember when I was about 25, went to see my gynecologist. I always had very, very, difficult cramps. Painful. I'm like, I don't want to do this anymore. Why can't I have a hysterectomy? Which he was horrified to hear. Well, you may change your mind. I'm not going to change my mind. Why can't I do this? I want to do this.

Jennie Wetter: It's really hard to convince. To convince even now.

Sharon Johnson: I would imagine it's probably even worse now in some ways, because-- But I knew that that was something for me that was not a choice that I would make. I don't begrudge anybody else who wants to do it. God bless them. Good for them. Especially the ones that do it well. Need more of those people that do it well. Susan and Rich, doing a great job.  

Susan Lambert Hatem: Thanks.

Sharon Johnson: You know.But yeah, it, I guess because of my experience, I'm thinking, but you're a doctor. You could have just, you know, had this taken care of if it was really that important to you. But again, you're right. It's about the story. It's about. And they did give them an opportunity to tell a story where her husband, despite disagreeing with her--  

Susan Lambert Hatem: Supported her.  

Sharon Johnson: Absolutely supported her. It's your choice. Whatever you want to do. Ultimately, this is what I want. But whatever you want to do, I will support you.

Susan Lambert Hatem: A lot of writing in modern television tries to be more thoughtful about it. If you're going to do that storyline, you are also giving multiple points of view and hopefully a little more insight into what's going on. Although I would put the Maude episode up against a lot of things now, just in terms of--

Jennie Wetter: It did a really good job.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah. And as we were, like, being shocked as we were saying it, season one, episode nine. They're not even halfway through their first season. Now this is, of course, a spinoff of All in the Family. Maude was a spinoff of All in the Family. So there's-- And it's Norman Lear. So there's lots of reasons for there to be that kind of sort of honesty mixed with humor upfront, whatever, kind of in your face--ness of the time for television. But I just sort of, you know. And what was interesting is there wasn't a lot of pushback in the first airing of this because it was November 1972 and it was legal in New York and it was Maud. However, apparently when it re-aired in the summer after Roe v. Wade became law, like somewhere between 30 and 40 affiliate stations didn't show it and there were huge protests by anti-abortion viewers and they got a lot of letters. But it had 65 million viewers. The rerun. 65 million. I mean, you can't get 65 million people watching the Super Bowl. Not Americans.

Jennie Wetter: I assume that was the original airing the 65 million was for, not the rerun.

Susan Lambert Hatem: No, the rerun was that much because it was because as many people that were, you know, offended by it, the Roe v. Wade, I think, had put abortion back in the news. Had put abortion and launched the, you know, the backlash to that legality. And, I think it gave attention to that show in a way that didn't have it before Roe v. Wade was passed.

Sharon Johnson: It makes sense in a lot of ways.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I mean, it was a popular show.

Sharon Johnson: It was a popular show. The only way to watch things, again, was via reruns if you missed it the first time. Clearly a lot of people heard about it that missed it the first time. So when the rerun happened, they were going to watch it. So that actually does make a lot of sense, that so many people watch the reruned. I'm actually just surprised that they reran it because they didn't repeat everything over the summer.

Susan Lambert Hatem: But they repeated Norman Lear a lot over the summer. My guess is that--

Sharon Johnson: No, it’s more because of the number of episodes, they didn't have enough weeks during the summer.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Okay.

Sharon Johnson: To repeat everything. Because that would always happen to me. That an episode that I really liked, or maybe one that for some reason I had missed, I'm waiting for it to be repeated over the summer. And that's one of the ones that they skip.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I'm wondering if they did it on purpose.

Sharon Johnson: Oh, I'm sure.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Because they knew they would get backlash, but they would also get a lot of viewers.

Sharon Johnson: Exactly, exactly.

Susan Lambert Hatem: That's very interesting. I also want to point out, because this was very interesting, not just on an 80s TV Ladies level, that this is literally the first episode Rue McClanahan shows up as Vivian. This is the first Vivian episode. We haven't seen her before. She doesn't even really get a great introduction. She's just in the room with Maude and then shows up and they're going to play cards. She would go on to become a regular and do a total 115 episodes out of the 141 episodes. But I didn't until we were looking at this, I just assumed she was on the show from the beginning. It is episode nine. But it was sort of interesting. And there are different directors for part one and part two, which I thought was interesting. Now part of that is, I think, they were settling on a director because there are three directors in season one. And then Hal Cooper, who directed part two, it was his first episode of Maude, and then he basically goes on to direct almost all the rest of the Maudes. And Bill Holden directs like nine of the first 13, but doesn't go on after that season. It becomes Hal Cooper for the rest of the show, for the most part. So I thought that was just interesting from a making television point of view that this big episode, which feels like it almost picks up where it left off--  

Jennie Wetter: Yeah. Seamless.

Susan Lambert Hatem: This big two-parter, was directed by two different directors.

Jennie Wetter: And, yeah, I have to say, Rue McClanahan, I didn't immediately recognize her. She had so much hair and so much gray hair, I just-- It took like, a little bit into that scene-- Like, I knew she was supposed to be there, but, like, she was not immediately recognizable.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And so I also read about that. And this one, I haven't had a chance to make sure. So it was just in one article, and I found it-- She was not a recurring character. She was brought on basically for, you know, one or two episodes, I think, were this part. And they were thinking of making her recurring, but this was a guest-star role, like, and they made her-- They wanted her to be the same age as Maude. They aged her up in this episode, which--

Jennie Wetter: I thought they both looked older than they do on Golden Girls.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah, yeah. And when they, whenthey brought her on as a regular, she actually gets a little younger looking. She was like, I'm not doing all that makeup. We're going to-- So I think she actually gets younger looking in the show and gets to be more looking her age because she was not that old at this time.

Jennie Wetter: Yeah.

Susan Lambert Hatem: So it is. I also was like, well, she looks so severe, and she's just a different, slightly different character. But the-- And then-- And then there's all this backstory to all these characters that I don't remember. Like, you have no context for these two characters at all. And they go, you know, they go on to be a big part of the show. Like, she's apparently divorced at this point, but either dating or about to date Arthur, and then late-- Like it was his own little soap opera, Maude. And so then they go on to get married. And, you know, anyway, I thought that was just fascinating. I'm like, oh, my God, this is like Rue McClanahan's first episode. And she's not. She's just there. She's just like, oh, I'm here. And then let's talk about abortion.

Jennie Wetter: Yeah, she just like walks in.

Susan Lambert Hatem: She's like the Kramer of Maude.

Jennie Wetter: Also just made me realize how little of Maude I have seen. Like, I feel like I've seen just a handful of episodes before I saw this one, before I saw these two again this morning.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I remember watching it as a kid, and I would have been very young for it. And I'm sure if my mom had seen it on, she'd be like, turn that off. But--

Sharon Johnson: We were living in-- My dad was in the Air Force and we were stationed in Japan in 1972 when the show first aired. I'm sure when we came back to the states in 74, I probably started watching it. I don't remember. And I must have caught this episode in reruns because I do remember watching it at some point before this. But, yeah, I don't. It's also interesting that it would have been in part of reruns. You might have thought it's. I mean, I know that it got a lot of ratings, but with. I'm sure is. There was enough people who probably weren't happy about it that CBS might have pulled it. I mean, you never know with these things. But maybe back then they're like, yeah, just throw it in there. We don't care. Just put it in there. It's more money for us. Just put it in there.

Susan Lambert Hatem: More ads. But, yeah, Maude, I didn't watch a lot of or very closely because, again, they felt old to me. Those were old people and old people problems and things. And it, it felt. And it felt very. I wasn't. It was later that I ended up watching a lot of All in the Family. I probably watched more All in the Family.

Jennie Wetter: So I think it got syndicated later because I remember watching All in the Family. And I wasn't born until 80. So like, I definitely saw it in syndication.

Sharon Johnson: For some reason, I always had-- I long time. For a long time had this, this impression that shows didn't get syndicated until after they stopped airing on the network. I don't think that was true, but that was the impression that I got.

Susan Lambert Hatem: They weren't sold to syndication until they had 100 episodes. So that was why the hundred episode was such a big deal, is you needed-- At the time, you needed 100 episodes to really have a life in syndication. So it was a big, you know, target and then it was sold to syndication. I think the reruns were different than syndication.

Sharon Johnson: Oh, absolutely.

Susan Lambert Hatem: So, yeah, I don't know. That's, it's, it's sort of fascinating. It's pretty. I'm gonna watch a little more Maude because I'm curious because we're doing Golden Girls too. And it's very informative because she does seem older. She seems like a-- You know, what's great is you're like, she's a different character.

Jennie Wetter: It's just like the hair and the styling as well, like different eras. Right? Like 70s versus 80s. But yeah, I think it was just like the way she was styled and like, she has some of that similar styling in Golden Girls, but she just felt a little more dowdy and like her hair was just-- I don't know, they both just felt older than they appear in Golden Girls.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Well, it was such an interesting thing when you think of the spinoffs of, you know, All in the Family and the number of them. But also you're like, okay, so we're taking Maude and like, and now she's gonna have her own show. Like, you know, who was basically a foil for, you know, Archie? I know! It was interesting how things got made in the 70s.

Sharon Johnson: Well, speaking of which, I think most of the spinoffs were people who were foils for Archie.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yes.

Sharon Johnson: So they went off and then they went off and got their own show.

Susan Lambert Hatem: That was the thing. You're like, I want to come in and tell Archie a thing or two.

Sharon Johnson: Exactly.

Susan Lambert Hatem: So I can get my own show.

Sharon Johnson: Put him in his place.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I do want to note, on Irma Kalish, who was married to Arthur Kalisch, but was a prolific and pioneering writer and producer of television with her husband and writing partner, Austin Kalisch. They started on Dean Martin, Jerry Lewis radio show, but wrote for Family Affair, F Troop, All in the Family, Maude. She also did solo writing and producing on Good Times, Valerie, 227, Hogan Family and Facts of Life. So she was a big 80s TV Lady. And I want to shout her out because she's one of the co-writers on the show.

Sharon Johnson: Yeah, absolutely.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I think she takes the second episode and-- Anyway, so other notes? What's your grade on this two-parter from a reproductive rights perspective?

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Jennie Wetter: To me, it's interesting in the way that it still feels so relevant and people are having similar conversations in their homes. You know, about 55% of people who have abortions have already had one birth. So, like, she fits right in the demographic of like what we see. Like generally they may be a little younger, but there are still some older people who are older in their reproductive years. Not old, but older in their reproductive years, who also get abortions. So it felt, it feels right and it, and I think some of the things that I would love to see but are still like things I would love to see now and maybe were a little less so then. But you know, we, like I had mentioned before, paying for an abortion is a real challenge. Like I would love to see some of the barriers represented and I think some of those weren't in place then in New York. Right? So they didn't apply. But I think like, if you were to bring the story forward to now, you would want to see, you know, what, what sort of barriers people are having to overcome to show how hard it is for people to access abortion. And I think that's going to be true even in states like New York. Like they might not be able to get an appointment right away because people are traveling to New York to get abortions and things like that. So like, I would just love to have seen a little bit of that. I also would have loved to have maybe seen it happen. Not like all the details but like it ends with the decision and like that's good. And I really did like that ending. But it was a little bit of like-- And then it feels like just like one of those places where, you know, they demystified some of the conversations that happened around abortion and how she got to that decision and such. I think there's one other place that I think maybe not at that time but has become a real trope later is, is, is, is regret and like that's heavily air quoted where they say that people regret their abortions. Studies show that is not true. If you look at the Turnaway Study, it is very clear, that people do not regret having their abortion. And so I just think like a little bit of that, like five more minutes or like a couple minutes of like either after, like where there's like maybe comfort with that decision, or like we made the right choice versus this is the right choice. Does that make sense? So I think like a high B, but I think there are like little tweaks that I would have loved to have seen, like almost A. And I think it was great and I really enjoyed it. I found the episodes funny. I enjoyed the conversations that happened. But yeah, there were just like a couple things I think would have made it like stellar.

Susan Lambert Hatem: You know, and I'm agreeing with you, but it is sort of. I was so stunned at how friggin’ conversational and progressive it was for the time and how meaningful her and Walter's relationship was by the end. I mean, it's a sitcom. They're, you know, they spend most of the sitcoms, I think, yelling at each other like, yeah, yeah, for Maude. You know, but that, you know, when she's like, just tell me I'm doing the right thing. And he's. And then he, you know, is like, for you, for me, in the privacy of our own lives, you're doing the right thing. And that in the privacy of our own lives was such. It felt like such like a, it felt political, that part.

Jennie Wetter: Well, and almost foreshadowing. Because privacy was what they ended up hanging Roe on. I know.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I know. And I would be-- I am so curious if somebody's ever done a deep dive if any of the Supreme Court justices or their wives watched Maude.

Jennie Wetter: My only question is if it is some of the other rights that kind of went before that, like Loving and stuff. Like were they-- They also might have had some of that, like trying to like create the right separate. So I think privacy kind of became that vein that then now you saw, like LGBTQ rights, abortion rights kind of all hanging on that area. and then so when Dobbs came down, they like were like, we should get rid of all of that. So it might have also been like the birth control stuff. Like that was like that vein that like came up. So privacy was not like out of the blue, like it had already been started.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Well, and not so much just for the privacy line, but we know that television at the time was, was the Internet, right? It was information pipeline. It was a pop culture pipeline where--

Sharon Johnson: A lot of people got a lot of information about a lot of things.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And in recognizing how much, how important television was to the 70s and 80s, how there were 60 million people sometimes watching a show, just a regular show, which doesn't happen now. But so it's more like there was an episode of All in the Family that talked about, where Edith's cousin turned out to be a lesbian. And they talked about that episode airing. Matt Baume came on, talked about that episode airing just months before this huge law came into play or vote came into play for rights in California. And he's like, I think it affected the vote. I think it helped pass that law. And it would not surprise me if the Supreme Court justices, one or two or more of them and or their wives watched Maude as well. Not saying that they went-- You know, there wasn't already all the precedent and legal stuff and all this stuff, but we now know, like, that Supreme Court justices are just like everybody else and swayed by really weird things, comparatively, when you think they're just swayed by the law, but we know they're not. I would not. I would be very curious to know if there's-- There's a PhD out there for you, who they were and what they were watching. The Supreme Court justices.

Sharon Johnson: Jennie, do you happen to know if Dodds was, when it was argued? In other words, at what point-- The decision came out in January of 73.

Jennie Wetter: Oh, when Roe was argued?

Sharon Johnson: Yes, when Roe was argued. Sorry, when Roe.

Jennie Wetter: Roe was argued twice, actually.

Sharon Johnson: Okay.

Jennie Wetter: I don't know off top of my head when it was argued.

Sharon Johnson: The reason I'm asking is because this likely was written sometime late summer, maybe earlier, because they would have planned out a lot of what they were going to be writing episode episodically. So.

Jennie Wetter: So that would have been before then.

Sharon Johnson: Yeah, it would have been sometime in that, you know, August or maybe September, probably June, July, August, maybe September of 72 that-- But not quite that, that the writers were talking about writing this episode.

Jennie Wetter: So it was first argued December 13, 1971.

Sharon Johnson: Uh-huh.

Jennie Wetter: And then it was re-argued on October 11, 1972, and then decided on January 22, 73.

Sharon Johnson: Okay. So the writers probably, obviously.

Jennie Wetter: Well, they would have heard the first or they would have been able to read the transcript of the first.

Sharon Johnson: Right. And at least probably knew about it. I'm sure it was big news. And so when they were talking about stories over that summer of 72, what can we have. What can we talk about on Maude? What shows can we do that? That must have come up and somebody said, well, let's do an episode about this. Not knowing, obviously. they may or may not have known when the re-argument happened or when. When the decision might have been expected.

Melissa Roth: It probably would have been on the docket, though.

Sharon Johnson: Yeah.

Melissa Roth: Yeah, it would have been on the docket. They may not have gotten into oral arguments, but it would have been on the docket.

Jennie Wetter: Yep.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah. It's interesting. I. You know, it's like Norman Lear was probably paying attention.

Sharon Johnson: Oh, yeah.

Susan Lambert Hatem: To what was happening on the Supreme Court. I don't know about all the TV wrighters, but Susan Harris probably was.

Sharon Johnson: Yeah. And maybe just one. Maybe it was Susan Harris or one of the other. Maybe it was Norman Lear who said, hey, let's look into this and let's maybe write an episode about this. Go off and write it.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Well, you know that. I mean, I'm just imagining that Susan Harris got the assignment to write the vasectomy episode, and she's like, oh, yeah? I'll write the vasectomy episode, but it's gonna be about abortion.

Sharon Johnson: We have to talk about both.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Anyway, so, in your mind, is there some pop culture that you-- We talked about Grey's Anatomy, but what, have you seen other things? Like, you know, are there other, shows that you think of and go, oh, they got it right, or they did some damage or what?

Jennie Wetter: I mean, the ones that, like, stick out the most in my mind is obviously like, Dirty Dancing. And also thinking of-- I had the other one. It just went out of my head. Revolutionary Road.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Oh.

Sharon Johnson: Oh, I never saw that.

Jennie Wetter: Yeah. So both, I'm pretty sure, illegal abortions. I mean, for sure in Dirty Dancing. 99 percent sure in Revolutionary Road, also illegal. And in Revolutionary, she dies. And so again, yes, that happened. And yes, people died, but, like, it's the, like, continuing to scare people about abortion being unsafe. That is very much an anti-talking point, is that abortion is unsafe. And so a lot of, like, paternalistic-- We must protect the women and keep them safe. You know, the waiting period. They don't know their minds. They need to, like, sit and think about it for a little while. So I always, like, those always give me a little bit of the ick of, like, so unhelpful.

Susan Lambert Hatem: So unhelpful.

Jennie Wetter: I think, you know, you're starting to see better stories of, of what people encounter. I'm trying-- I'm also thinking of Sex Education. When they go to the clinic and there's protesters and, like, talking to the protester. Like that is also, I think, helpful so that people know what they may encounter when they go to a clinic. You know, clinic violence still happens. You still have protesters outside of clinics harassing people trying to access care. This is a little bit about of, like, why they're fighting so hard against abortion pills. If you can have pills mailed to you, they can't shame you in person for going and accessing an abortion, or threaten you or try and convince you to not get one. If it's just your local pharmacist you're going to pick up pills for, if they're mailed to you, they don't have that same sort of place where they can shame and control you. And I also think we're still waiting to see. You're starting to see a little bit of medication abortion make it into stories. But I think there's a little bit that hasn't quite made it as far. Abortion on screen. I think they said there were like, two shows last year that had medication abortion storylines in them. So it's still working its way in. But yeah, they have an annual report that comes out every year. Abortion on Screen. And always great to see how it's being represented, and where people are getting it right and where they're getting it wrong.

Sharon Johnson: Just my feeling from most of the television that I've watched is that most of the time when a woman character on a show gets pregnant and there's a dilemma about whether or not she's going to have an abortion, it seems that more often than not, what they would do is-- Yeah, she would have a miscarriage. Just, you know, and there goes the problem.

Jennie Wetter: False positive.

Sharon Johnson: Yes, exactly. Yeah, one of those two things. But they would never go that. They wouldn't go that next step. Interestingly enough, in Mad Men, I distinctly remember one of the episodes where the character Joan-- I don't know if either of you watched that show all the way through, but she—It’s set in the early 60s, and she goes to her gynecologist, who, by the way, is smoking in the exam room, but that's another story. and, they start talking about, not directly, but kind of indirectly because they've had this conversation before. It's not like they're trying to explain it to the audience. But you get what's happening is that he's asking her about or mentioned something that basically infers that she's had at least one abortion because of the way that he phrases it. And it's clear that he was the person that must have done it because he knows about it. And it was no big deal. It was just, okay. You know, is everything okay? Sure. All right.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I'm actually thinking of Plan B, the film, do you know that film? 2021?

Jennie Wetter: I haven't seen it. The other one I was thinking of that I haven't seen and this is totally on me because I should have seen it, is Obvious Child is another one, that it's Jennie Slate and has supposedly done a really good job of depicting abortion. I just haven't seen it.

Sharon Johnson: Yeah, there's also another--

Jennie Wetter: It's the like work thing.

Sharon Johnson: Oh, I totally understand.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Okay, well, speaking of that, that, speaking of real life and your real life work, what can people do to support reproductive and abortion rights in the US and worldwide?

Jennie Wetter: So I, I always say a couple things. One, if you have, if you have the ability to donate right now, if you could donate to an abortion fund, they saw a huge, increase in support with, with the Dobbs decision. There hasn't been that same continued level of support because, you know, there was a lot of rage donating. And if abortion isn't always in the headlines, people aren't necessarily then donating to abortion funds. So it's, I find it really important. And my other big thing I always like to talk about in conjunction with that is if you could become a monthly donor. That is so amazing. That does not mean you need to give big amounts. You could give a couple dollars a month, but that means as they're budgeting the year and knowing how much they have to give, to support patients every month to access care, they know they are getting that $2, $5, whatever. So I try to do monthly donations to a couple abortion funds and then I also try to like give randomly when I can. The other thing I think is really important is there is this huge atmosphere of mis-- and disinformation right now around not just abortion, but around birth control. You're seeing so much disinformation on social media around birth control. If you can make yourself a resource, a trusted resource to help your community around you, that is so important. That does not mean you need to know all the things. I do not think you need to know all the things. But if you have a friend who's considering getting an abortion and doesn't need nowhere to go, if you know that you can send them to I Need An A or Abortion Finder, it will help them find the lowest, the nearest clinic, tell them how much it will cost, show them any restrictions they may run across, things like that. If they're looking to get pills mailed to them, they know that you can send them to Plan C Pills that will give them a list of places where they can order them safely online from trusted sources. If they're worried about criminalization, you can go to If/When/How. we have a page of resources. I will make sure to share that with Susan and Sharon so that they have it. There are just a lot of things that so you can, you don't need to know all the information. But if you know where to send people with trusted information, that makes you a really valuable resource. So that is the other thing I like to tell people to do. And also I would be a terrible podcaster if I did not say check out the Repros Fight Back podcast. We talk about what is happening around sexual reproductive health and rights. We dig deep on a given topic each week and then talk about how you can get involved to fight back.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I love that. And where can they find Repros Fight Back.

Jennie Wetter: We are wherever you get your favorite podcasts on all the various podcast platforms or you can find us at reprosfightback.com and we are on all the various social medias at ReprosFightBack. Although we are on Instagram @reprosfb. But everywhere else Repros Fight Back.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Cool. And we will have links in our description. I wanna, I found this quote on Reddit posted a year ago in a forum about Maude talking about Maude's dilemma. ‘Abortion was a huge issue all over the U.S. our local affiliate in Central Illinois refused to run that episode of Maude, so our local Unitarian church agreed to show it. I remember the audience was packed and the episode was extremely well written. The only place abortion was legal in the early seventies was New York. Thousands of American women traveled to New York for abortions. I was one. I remember when my flight arrived at LaGuardia, all arriving passengers were greeted by people with signs identifying the clinic they represented. The clinics provided rides from the airport to the clinic and afterwards they drove us back to the airport. I noticed there were several women on my flight who were there for the same reason I was. And there were equally as many on other flights arriving from all over the US. This was the status quo all day, every day. Also of note, locally a church provided an outreach service helping women arrange all of this. Very different times. I'm 76 now and cannot believe that a huge swath of this country want very much for us to do a speedrun back to the 1600s. Racism and misogyny are rearing their ugly heads. It's like all the freedoms we fought for over the past 50 years are going to be flushed down the toilet.’

Jennie Wetter: Oh, I will add one thing. There are still churches involved in doing that work. So. Yes, yes, it is. There are so many that are anti. But there are some really great ones that are still doing that amazing work. There's ones in Texas that are helping people go to New Mexico to get abortions. And also just like what she's talking about, New York right now has a lot-- I mean, they're in a lot of other states too, but New York is the one that's getting the most attention right now. They have a shield law protecting abortion providers in New York if they are sending pills out of state. So you're still seeing that, yes, people are traveling to New York, but you're also seeing providers in New York shipping pills to people in states where they cannot access care.

Sharon Johnson: That's fantastic.

Susan Lambert Hatem: It's good. It's much easier to access care. I just, it was very touching. It was not what I expected in the Reddit forum on the Maude.

Jennie Wetter: I mean, that was really great.

Sharon Johnson: Like somebody with firsthand experience and having to go through that. That’s amazing.

Jennie Wetter: We're still doing the same thing in many ways.

Sharon Johnson: Yeah.

Jennie Wetter: Is also heartbreaking.

Sharon Johnson: Everything old is new again, unfortunately.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yes. But I like what you said at the top of the show, which is we will get there. And that it is a human right to be in charge of yourself and to decide for yourself what you want. And someone else had described it to me, they're like, abortion is healthcare. For some people it is health care with dire physical aspects.

Sharon Johnson: Yeah. There are women that have, you know, been recorded as having died because they couldn't get care.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Right.

Sharon Johnson: Because it was considered an abortion.

Jennie Wetter: There’s a lot of chicken being played in a lot of states right now is like, are you close enough to death for us to give you that abortion?

Sharon Johnson: Right.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Which is insane.

Jennie Wetter: And they're playing chicken.

Sharon Johnson: Yeah.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah. And it's insane. So for some people, abortion is, is a, is an important medical decision. For others it's an important moral decision. But for other people it's not either one of those things. It doesn't have to be either one of those things for you to have a decision about abortion for yourself. It's health care.

Jennie Wetter: There are no good abortions, there are no bad abortions. There's just the abortion you get.

Sharon Johnson: Right. And at the end of the day, it's something that every individual woman should be able to decide for herself what and how she wants to do it, if she wants to do it. It shouldn't be up to anybody else other than her.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And it's all tied to all the rights for everyone. Like, that's what's so crazy, is, like, this is tied to making choices for your own self.

Jennie Wetter: I mean, I'll just go ahead and say it's bodily autonomy. Right? So we've had this whole conversation around abortion. We could have just as easily had this whole conversation around transgender health care. It's the same people fighting against it, using the exact same fight they have used to fight against abortion. So we are all in this together. So I guess that's the one other thing I would add is, like, we need to fight for bodily autonomy. And so that means also being there for the transgender community, because they are really under attack right now with this administration. And I know that's not the topic of the episode, but these are the same fight.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Absolutely. Absolutely the same fights. Because it's about. It's a. It's. It's health care. I get to choose what I need for my health care.

Sharon Johnson: And it's freedom, which is--

Susan Lambert Hatem: Everyone should be able to choose that.

Sharon Johnson: Yeah.

Susan Lambert Hatem: It's like it's nobody's business.

Sharon Johnson: Exactly. Exactly.

Susan Lambert Hatem: It should be health care available that you need, period. And other people should not be able to judge or legalize that. It's insane. Anyway, but we will get there. That's what I'm going to say. Thank you so very much. This has been super fun.

Jennie Wetter: Thank you for having me.

Susan Lambert Hatem: It's been delightful. So I really appreciate that we connected and got you on the show.

Sharon Johnson: Yeah. And thanks so much for all the work you have done and continue to do in this area.  

Jennie Wetter: Thank you for this great podcast. I really enjoy it.

Sharon Johnson: Oh, I'm so glad. I'm so glad to hear that. Thank you. In today's audio-ography, Maude is currently streaming on Pluto and Tubi for free. But note the abortion episodes are out of order for some reason. They show up as season one, episode six, and season one, episode 13 on Tubi. And it's available for purchase on the usual-suspect sites.

Susan Lambert Hatem: It's also available on DVD from Shout Factory on, which is now part of Gruv, spelled G-R-U-V. The link will be in our description. You can always find some on eBay. And weirdly though, it looks like Shout Factory issued a complete series DVD in 2021.

Sharon Johnson: Wow. That's great.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I know. I didn't even know people were still making DVDs in 2021.

Sharon Johnson: Some of the articles we referenced in this episode will be in our description. You can find Repros Fight Back at reprosfightback.com.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And if you're looking for some cool books, you can find the book Shout Your Abortion Book at shoutyourabortion.com and you should. We'll also have some of the sites Jennie mentioned, abortionfunds.com, Abortion Finder, and others, links in our description.

Sharon Johnson: Next up, you do not want to miss our next guest. Of course, we could kind of say that about all of our guests, but—

Susan Lambert Hatem: Oh, that's true.  

Sharon Johnson: But you don't want to miss this.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Any episode of 80s TV Ladies, but this next one, for Golden Girls fans--

Sharon Johnson: It's going to be a hoot. It's going to be a holler. It's going to be so much fun. We are going to be talking to the Golden Girls Deep Dive podcast host, Patrick Hines.

Susan Lambert Hatem: You might say we're deep diving into Patrick Hines. But he is also the co-host of True Crime Obsessed and the author of Failure Is Not Not an Option. We cannot wait to hear him tell us all about all The Golden Girls, from an episode walkthrough podcasting perspective. It's a great podcast. I've been listening to it. It's really fun. They are very funny.

Sharon Johnson: And his book is a hoot and a holler as well. And it's a really great and fun read.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I'm looking forward to it. It's going to be super fun to interview.

Sharon Johnson: As always, we hope 80s TV Ladies brings you joy and laughter and lots of fabulous new and old shows to watch. All of which will lead us toward being amazing ladies of the 21st century.

Amy Englehardt [Singing]: 80s TV Ladies, So sexy and so pretty. 80s TV Ladies, Steppin’ out into the city. 80s TV Ladies, often treated kind of sh-[wolf whistle]. Working hard for the money in a man’s world. 80s TV Ladies!

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