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Marcia Posner Williams: From Arizona to Emmy Glory - The Golden Girls' Secret Weapon, Part 2

Melissa Roth: Weirding way media.

Amy Englehardt [Singing]: 80s TV Ladies, So sexy and so pretty. 80s TV Ladies, Steppin’ out into the city. 80s TV Ladies, often treated kind of sh-[wolf whistle]. Working hard for the money in a man’s world. 80s TV Ladies!

Melissa Roth: World 80s Ladies welcome to 80s TV Ladies, where Rose from  likes to say, the older you get, the better you get. Unless you're a banana. Here are your hosts, Susan Lambert Hatem and Sharon Johnson.

Sharon Johnson: Hey, I'm Sharon Johnson.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And I'm Susan Lambert Hatem.

Sharon Johnson: Our guest today is Marcia Posner Williams. She has produced over 400 episodes of primetime network television and won two Primetime Emmys and three Golden Globes.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Some of the most remarkable series that Marcia produced include Soap, Benson, Hail to the Chief, Amen, Night Court, and of course, The Golden Girls. Originally from Arizona, Marcia came to Los Angeles to pursue a career in television. She worked her way up from dirty joke writer and typist to multiple award-winning producer of some of the most popular television shows of the 80s and beyond.

Sharon Johnson: Marcia co-authored a humor book called How to Get Even with Your Ex and produced pretty much every kind of film.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And today she's on with us to talk about her incredible career and all the amazing 70s, 80s and 90s television she worked on.

Sharon Johnson: So thrilled to have her on today's show. Welcome to 80s TV Ladies, Ms. Marcia Posner Williams.

Marsha Posner Williams: Yay! So happy to be here. Thank you for having me.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Thank you for being such an incredible 80s ladies producer and coming on to talk with us about The Golden Girls and your story. Now, I read that when you started that part of what started your love of television was That Girl.

Marsha Posner Williams: Correct.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Which for our listeners is a 1960s cutting edge comedy starring Marlo Thomas.

Marsha Posner Williams: She just aged me. Okay.

Susan Lambert Hatem: No, I watched it too.  

Sharon Johnson: I did too.  

Susan Lambert Hatem: The first show about young single girl leaving home, trying to make it on her own in the big city. That was a groundbreaking show for the time, which is so sad when you start to think about it. But what was it about that show for you?

Marsha Posner Williams: Well, I actually knew since even before that that this is the business I wanted to work in.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Oh, how did you do that?

Marsha Posner Williams: I think I was a television addict as a kid and I just always kept saying, how do they do that? How do they do that? But let me tell you a great story about That Girl. There's a couple of them. This, as you said, was a story of a young girl trying to make it in Hollywood as an actress. And I was so enthralled with that that I became a member of the Marlo Thomas Fan Club back in the day. And I used to write letters to the president of the Marlo Thomas Fan Club, saying, what's it like to be in Hollywood? Do you get to go on stage? Do you get to talk to the actors? And she always wrote me back, it was wonderful. Little did I know that years later, I would end up doing the first sitcom of my career with Marlo Thomas’ father, Danny Thomas.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Amazing.

Marsha Posner Williams: And at the very last show Danny Thomas ever starred in, I would produce, which was a terrible show. Well, it was a show called One Big Family. Okay. We called it One Big Boring Family, but anyway, that's aside. So there I was in the. Was it seventh grade, something like that, watching That Girl every week. Cut to I'm now in Hollywood. I'm in the business. I did Soap, I did Benson, and now I'm doing a show called Condo with McLean Stevenson. And it's the first day of the first episode. And we have a kid on the show. I think he was played by Mark Price. So we need a teacher, and we're. And everybody's introducing everybody. So I go up to the teacher, we're talking, and she said, Marcia Posner. Marcia Posner, are you, by any chance from Scottsdale, Arizona? I said, yes. She said, I used to be the president of the Marlo Thomas Fan Club. I'm the one you used to write to. What? How about that for a story?

Susan Lambert Hatem: Oh, my God, that's amazing.

Marsha Posner Williams: Is that a great story?

Susan Lambert Hatem: That is a great story, right? That is a great, like dream of Hollywood to Hollywood story.

Marsha Posner Williams: Right. Full circle. Right. And then, of course, to end up working for Marlo's brother for all those years.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yes.

Marsha Posner Williams: Amazing, Amazing.

Susan Lambert Hatem: So what, Were there other shows that also inspired you?

Marsha Posner Williams: Well, believe it or not, Mission Impossible was a show that I was completely addicted to because I kept saying, how do they do that? How do they do that? How do they change their look? How do they make these things happen? I was totally enamored with it. And unfortunately, I wasn't around on The Golden Girls  when Peter Graves was there, but it would have been a love fest, I can tell you that right now, because that show was very meaningful to me.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Oh, wow. You know, obviously television shows inspired us, so we always like to hear what shows inspired, everyone else.

Marsha Posner Williams: Yes.

Sharon Johnson: But the difference between Susan and me, though, is, like you, Marcia, Susan watched and went, how do they do that? And I just watched and went, oh, this is great. Bring on the next show that I want to watch.

Marsha Posner Williams: But that's what makes a great audience, right? Yes. It's all good. It's all good.

Susan Lambert Hatem: So when did you go, I gotta get to LA. And how did you get to LA?

Marsha Posner Williams: So, unfortunately, I lost my mother when I was a senior in high school. I became a little rebellious and I went to Arizona State for a year. Disliked every moment of my experience there and went for about another maybe half a year. And I said to my dad, I can't do this anymore. My sister's a smart one. Let her be a college person. I want to go to work. So I started working in a local independent station in Phoenix, KPHO TV, which was the first color station in the country.  

Susan Lambert Hatem: Oh, wow.  

Marsha Posner Williams: So I got a job as a secretary, and I worked there for two years. Now, Arizona is a very conservative state, as we know now, but back then it was assumed if you were a female who wanted a career, it was assumed you were going to be a secretary. So I knew after two years at that place, I needed to. I want to go to the big time. This is stupid. This is ridiculous. So it was at 22 or 23 is when I made that decision. I got to get out. Should I tell you what happened?

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yes, yes, please.

Marsha Posner Williams: I love telling this story, actually. So I packed up my little car, drove to Hollywood, lasted 24 hours, and I was back in Arizona. I said to my dad, I don't know one person there. I don't know what to do. I have no idea. And they have more than one freeway out there that just scares the crap out of me. Anyway, so I, I lasted a couple of weeks in Phoenix again. Went, said, this is ridiculous. Drove back to Hollywood, lasted two weeks, and back to Arizona I went. It was. It was just so scary for me. I'd never been outside of, you know, Arizona. And when I got back to Arizona that second time, I actually had six job offers waiting for me because I had this one skill, which was I could type 120 words a minute on an electric typewriter.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Wow.

Marsha Posner Williams: No computers, but that's what they clocked me at, 122.

Susan Lambert Hatem: That's fast.

Marsha Posner Williams: And I love talking about this with young people. I had to decide right then, do I want to stay here and be safe, but always wonder the rest of my life what would have happened if I'd had the guts enough to pursue what it is I think I really want to do? And again, what I love telling young people is I didn't want to go through life saying what if? So that sentiment, the difference between a goal and a wish is your motivation.That sentiment brought me back to Hollywood. And I will tell you in all honesty, my first two years in LA were so bad, so horribly struggling, because again, I had nobody leading me, I had nobody mentoring me or helping me. So I ended up, of course, taking a temporary job typing just to make some money. But then I realized I can't figure out the business during the day. If I'm doing these crappy jobs, I need a job at night. Did I end up working in a restaurant? No. Did I end up working in maybe a hotel? No. I took a job as a hostess dancer which in the old days was known as the Diamond Dance Girls. The song Private Dancer, what Tina Turner sang about 10 cents a dance. Right. So I became, a hostess dancer, or in the old terms was a taxi dancer. And 15 cents a minute dancing with guys who didn't even speak English or shooting pool or just sitting and talking to them. And then things got worse and that didn't work out and I ended up sleeping in my car.  

Susan Lambert Hatem: Oh, my God. Where did you do that? Can I ask? ‘Cause I'm sure there were places all over--

Marsha Posner Williams: There were.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Was it Hollywood?

Marsha Posner Williams: It was, I guess East Hollywood. Big Ballroom. They had a live band two days a week for people who wanted to dance. But imagine the music's going, like, really fast and everyone's dancing slow. Do I need to say anything else? No.

Susan Lambert Hatem: That's so, like, you know, the mom in me is terrified for you. Being a young person out in LA, I know that experience a lot. Thankfully I had college as a guide for that. But not knowing how to start is the hardest thing.

Marsha Posner Williams: Of course. And when we're done here and everything's turned off, I'll show you the picture of one of the outfits I used to go in. And that is pretty interesting. Of course, it was the 70s. We were all hippied out. Hot pants, go-go boots, fringe, peace signs everywhere. Yeah. But if you don't try, how do you know?

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah.

Marsha Posner Williams: And honestly, the struggling makes the getting there that much better. If it's handed to you, what's the fun in that? Seriously, there's no story. There's no story. To me. I think I have a story.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Absolutely.

Marsha Posner Williams: Yes.

Sharon Johnson: But something made you hang on those two years and just keep pushing forward, to try to obtain, to reach your goal, which--

Marsha Posner Williams: Exactly, exactly.

Sharon Johnson: It’s quite amazing.

Marsha Posner Williams: At some point I did say, well, what am I going to do if this doesn't work out? But I did think about it, but it didn't happen. So. Yay.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yay. So when did, what was the breakthrough?

Marsha Posner Williams: The first break?  

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah.  

Marsha Posner Williams: Okay, so while I was the hostess dancer, one of the girls that worked there was a young aspiring, actress and she was telling me about this really low budget movie she had just, was, that they were shooting. I said, oh, do they need help? Do they need help? Well, she got me an interview with the company, and I kind of used the term loosely, but there was like two people, three people that worked at the company -- the executive producer owned the company, a writer, and then a male secretary that they had. So I went in and I met the head guy and I said, look, I'm going to tell you something I don't normally tell people because it gets me to places I don't normally want to be. But I can type 120 words a minute. And he pointed to the male secretary and he said, do you want that job? I said, yes. So for the next two years, and I'm not kidding when I tell you this. Oh, let me tell you the kind of movies they made. They made two feature films of nothing but dirty jokes. So back in the day, there was a genre like that. Groove Tube, Tunnel Vision, Kentucky Fried Movie, were all vignette, vignette, vignette. Right? Just like a Saturday Night Live vignette, vignette, vignette. Well, that's what this was. So for the next two years, all I did five days a week was read and type jokes. That's all I did. So I tell people, don't test me because you'll lose, because I am locked, loaded and ready at all times, at all times, at all times.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Can you give us one?

Marsha Posner Williams: Well, yes, I can. And you can decide whether to keep it in the show or not. I'll give you my favorite.

Sharon Johnson: Yes, please.

Marsha Posner Williams: Okay, so picture, three bad guys standing on a street corner. And the first bad guy says, boy, I wish I could rob a bank because then I'd have enough money to buy me that beautiful Mercedes parked right over there. And the second bad guy says, I know what you mean. If I could hold up an armored truck, I could afford to buy that beautiful Cadillac parked right next to that Mercedes. And the third bad guy says, nah, I just wish I could give guys good blow jobs. And the second guy says, give guys good blow jobs. What do you mean? Why? And he said, because my sister does it. She owns both those cars. So we put that on film.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Oh, my God.

Marsha Posner Williams: It's visual, isn't it?

Susan Lambert Hatem: It's very visual.

Sharon Johnson: Now.

Susan Lambert Hatem: So that was just your job?

Marsha Posner Williams: Yes.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And you did that for two years?

Marsha Posner Williams: That's right. And then I quit. I didn't have another job to go to, but I just quit because the $115 a week just wasn't making it for me.

Sharon Johnson: But was there anything that you learned working there that actually helped you later on as you were beginning to make your way in other jobs at other places?

Marsha Posner Williams: I can tell you that the more I worked, the more confident I got in my ability. Which is why when I quit having no job, that took guts. Right? And at this time now I'm living with roommates who took me out of my car when I was homeless for-- Wasn't too long, but one night is long enough, right?

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah.

Marsha Posner Williams: And so now there are five of us, three guys, two girls living together. And so I'm home for a few weeks. The phone rings one night, and it's this woman. She asked for me, and she said, you don't know me, I don't know you. I'm calling from MGM Studios. I'm working with a show starring Danny Thomas. We're starting our second season of a show called The Practice. The creator of the show, a wonderful guy named Steve Gordon is flying in to help kick off the second season. And we need a secretary to work with him for just four weeks. Only just four weeks. Can you start Monday for $200 a week plus overtime? So, of course I said yes. I hung up the phone, called my father immediately. He said, guess what? I've made it. MGM Studios, NBC. Danny Thomas, who of course I knew who that was. I've made it. This is it. Well, the woman said to me, listen. I just want to let you know, Steve, really nice guy, but he's a hypochondriac to the nth degree. She said, but it's four weeks. You can put up with anything. I said, I can put up with anything, so no worries. Well.  

Susan Lambert Hatem: I'm so excited, and I'm so excited for the young you getting that call.

Marsha Posner Williams: Yes, yes.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And going, Danny Thomas on the phone.

Marsha Posner Williams: Right, right. So, of course, I said to myself, no, I don't want to be a secretary. But I'm smart enough to know the toughest thing to do in this business is get your foot in the door. Right? So what am I going to do to make them remember me in four weeks? And the answer was simple. Spoil them rotten. Well, I brought my own typewriter into that office because I didn't like the one that they had. And nobody could touch how fast I was, right? And Steve was just a wonderful guy to work with. And when he found out who I was dating at the time, which is another story, he went out of his mind crazy and was. And when people would come to have a meeting with him, the first thing they'd say, he'd say is, you know who she's dating? And then it would take off him. Anyway, that's, whatever. So, I mean.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

Marsha Posner Williams: We have to know who it is.

Susan Lambert Hatem: We have to go back. What year is this?

Marsha Posner Williams: This is ‘75.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Okay. Probably. Who were you dating?

Marsha Posner Williams: I was dating the most famous actor in the world, probably at the time in the porn business.  

Melissa Roth: John Hall.  

Marsha Posner Williams: No, no. But you're close. But you're close. That guy. No, no, no. But you're close. No. What's the most famous adult movie to this day ever made?

Susan Lambert Hatem: We are out of my wheelhouse. Deep Throat. Yeah?

Melissa Roth: Yeah. Deep Throat.  

Marsha Posner Williams: Are you looking that up?

Susan Lambert Hatem: I'm gonna look it up because I don't have this on the top of my head.

Melissa Roth: Is it the doctor?

Sharon Johnson: The only other name that comes to mind.

Melissa Roth: You gotta be kidding me. You were dating the doctor? That's fantastic. That's fantastic. I know exactly who you were dating.

Susan Lambert Hatem: You know this film.

Melissa Roth: You have not seen—

Susan Lambert Hatem: I have not seen.  

Sharon Johnson: I haven't seen it either.

Marsha Posner Williams: I haven’t seen it either.  

Melissa Roth: None of you have? Oh, dear.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Harry Reems.  

Melissa Roth: I think I just admitted something.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Harry Reems.

The name is Harry Reems. Was that his real name?

Marsha Posner Williams: No.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Okay.

Marsha Posner Williams: Herbert Streicher.  

Melissa Roth: Even better  

Marsha Posner Williams: Herbie Streicher. Nice Jewish boy. Yeah.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Herbie Streicher.

Marsha Posner Williams: Yeah.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Oh, my god. Okay, you are having a Hollywood time as a young lady in the ‘70s.

Marsha Posner Williams: Yeah. He took me to the Playboy Mansion three times.

Susan Lambert Hatem: But anyway, we're going to have to start another podcast for you.

Marsha Posner Williams: I'm telling you. I always said if I could write a book about my life, I would hope it would be banned in Florida.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Well, apparently that's very easy to do these days.

Marsha Posner Williams: Yes, apparently. Yeah. So Steve was amazing, and he was a hypochondriac. But every time he'd say, he said to me when he first met me, listen, if I ask you for a cup of coffee, I need you to make it from a fresh pot. I said, no worries. That's fine. That's easy. Just know I'll be away from my desk a little bit longer. He said, that's okay. You know, the phone rings, I'll answer. Okay. Every time he'd ask me for a cup of coffee, I'd say, you know, I'll be back when I'm back. I'd go talk to all the other people in the office, wait about 10 minutes, just pour it from the regular pot and give it to him. He didn't know. He didn't care. It was all mental.

Susan Lambert Hatem: You had a little chutzpah.

Marsha Posner Williams: Just remember one thing about hypochondriacs. Eventually they're right.  

Susan Lambert Hatem: Correct.  

Marsha Posner Williams: Right? So.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I did not anticipate talking. I'm just going to go back for a minute that we have talked about Deep Throat today.

Marsha Posner Williams: Are we off the rails yet? Are we off the rails already?

Susan Lambert Hatem: It is our favorite thing to do to get off the rails. Usually it's when Sharon or I--

Marsha Posner Williams: Is this the time when you say it's more than we wanted to know? But—

Sharon Johnson: Never, never.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Love this. Because there, as you were saying, there wasn't a way for women to break into the industry.

Marsha Posner Williams: Correct.

Susan Lambert Hatem: You broke in as a secretary or an assistant.

Marsha Posner Williams: Right, right. But again, when you're good at what you do, I believe good things will happen, no matter if it's a man's world or not. And again, because of the sense of humor that I have, just worked for me and does to this day.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yes. And so what happened next?

Marsha Posner Williams: Okay, so four weeks turned into four months. Steve went back to New York. They fired or she quit, the secretary to the executive producer, an amazing guy named Sam Denoff who—Persky-Denoff, if you know those names from The Dick Van Dyke Show and all that. And so I became his assistant, and then the show got canceled. And I think it was Tony Thomas or Paul Witt, who were producing the show, came to me and said, we know you got a layoff notice, but we have formed our own company and you're coming with us. And Witt-Thomas-Harris was born, and I was the first employee.  

Susan Lambert Hatem: That is-- That's crazy.  

Marsha Posner Williams: Yeah.  

Susan Lambert Hatem: And so now did you get to-- Did you get to hang out with Danny Thomas at all?

Marsha Posner Williams: Well, because I went on to co-produce the first three telethons for Danny for St. Jude Children's Research Hospital, yes. I loved Danny. I loved him. He loved me. We had a great relationship. When we were doing the telethon, we would have meetings up at his house, and, you know, I just adored him. I adored him.

Susan Lambert Hatem: He seemed like a great, an actual great guy.

Marsha Posner Williams: Well, just look at St. Jude, so. Right?

Susan Lambert Hatem: I know, right?

Marsha Posner Williams: Yeah.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Such a groundbreaking foundation.

Marsha Posner Williams: Right.  

Susan Lambert Hatem: Located in the South. Desegregated hospital. That's huge.

Marsha Posner Williams: Yeah.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I'm from Georgia. I know what that means.

Marsha Posner Williams: A lot.  

Susan Lambert Hatem: It was groundbreaking, and it was for kids, and it was. I mean, they're responsible for kids not dying of leukemia.

Marsha Posner Williams: Exactly, exactly.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Directly, yeah.

Marsha Posner Williams: Yeah. I was crazy about him.

Sharon Johnson: What can you tell us about how that all came about and then how you ended up being the co-producer?

Marsha Posner Williams: Of the telethon or. Oh, it was because Danny's son Tony, was my boss. Right? And Tony, all of a sudden, however, they decided to do a telethon for St. Jude for the first time. And Tony said, I want you to work on it. I want you to do it. And so me and another guy-- Another guy and I did it. And I just, literally about two or three weeks ago, found pictures from the telethons. From one of them, at least, the first one, which Casey Kasem hosted.  

Susan Lambert Hatem: I remember.  

Marsha Posner Williams: And so I actually have pictures I can show you later. A few of them that show me and Tony and Danny and Henry Winkler and Jay Johnson from Soap, and, David Hasselhoff.

Susan Lambert Hatem: So this is ’86?

Marsha Posner Williams: No, no. ‘70s.

Susan Lambert Hatem: ‘70s.

Marsha Posner Williams: Yeah.

Susan Lambert Hatem: This is ‘70.

Marsha Posner Williams: This is during Soap days.

Susan Lambert Hatem: So during Soap. Okay. All right. Wow. That is. Now I'm dating myself because I remember the telethon.

Marsha Posner Williams: Just remember, if we keep the lights dim, we all look younger. So that's what I do.  

Sharon Johnson: And what was-- As the co-producer, what were, what were your duties? What were you, what were you doing for the telethon?

Marsha Posner Williams: For the telethon, we, we scheduled the whole telethon. This is how it's going to start. Segments, everything. Everything. So Tony had to show up, and we had to tell him what to do. Now, that's the way he liked it. So, yeah, it was a monstrous job. And it wasn't an endless telethon. It was only five hours. But five hours of live TV is like 100 hours of anything else.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Well, because the technology, so, like, now it's. Everything is digitized and everything. Then you're talking about real phones, people writing down real things. I remember the phones.

Marsha Posner Williams: Yeah. Remember that? Yes. No computers.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah.

Sharon Johnson: Not to mention anything can happen since it's live. Get stuck in traffic. Somebody could have, you know, or something could go wrong with something on set or whatever, and you deal with it and move forward.

Marsha Posner Williams: Right. You always have to have a plan B. Right?

Susan Lambert Hatem: Oh, my God. All right, so let's back up a little bit, because I want to talk about. So The Practice was the first television show you worked on.

Marsha Posner Williams: Sitcom.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Sitcom. And then you were. As a, secretary, you were typing. What was the first show where you felt like, oh, they've given me one more responsibility?

Marsha Posner Williams: So when Thomas-Harris was formed, the first show that they did was a show called Loves Me, Loves Me Not with Susan Day and Ken Gilman. It was 13 and out. But I was the secretary at the company, one of a couple of secretaries. But that show more morphed into Soap. Okay? The first season of Soap, Susan Harris single-handedly wrote all 22 episodes by herself. And I was the lucky one to be her secretary, her assistant, which meant I was the first one to read what she had written because she would handwrite in longhand, hand the pages to me. And if she'd hear me furiously typing it and then I'd start laughing, she'd come running in. Which part? Which part's funny? Which part's funny? So it was the most joyful place for me to be a secretary, to be the first one to read what Susan Harris wrote beause I think she's just off the charts. Brilliant.

Susan Lambert Hatem: So can you tell us more about Susan Harris and working with her and being, I mean, being that intimate on the beginning of what was really her voice. Right,? That was all her. Like she had done amazing writing before on shows.

Marsha Posner Williams: Yes, but this was her. This was not writing for somebody else's show. Although she had done the show Fay with Lee Grant about a woman, a divorced woman. And that was almost, I guess, a no-no in those days. Because I guess women never got divorced. You're not supposed to talk about like, please give me a break. So. But this was her opportunity as well as Paul and Tony to really push the envelope, which of course, you know, they did. Because to this day, Soap is the most controversial sitcom in the history of sitcoms. Even more so than All in the Family. Right? Because we had protesters outside our office, all of us with windows that faced the street. We used to keep our curtains closed because we were afraid someone was gonna throw a brick through the window.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And where were your offices?

Marsha Posner Williams: Sunset Gower in those days.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And, so. So amazing. So did they know? Like, were they, we want to make the most controversial show or was it--

Marsha Posner Williams: Just we wanna make a show that's real? Okay? Real people. Yes. We had a ventriloquist on the show, but come on, how funny was that? Okay? How fricking funny was that guy and those characters, right? Chuck and Bob. Come on. So somebody had to start all of that. Somebody had to say, yes, these things exist in life. And don't forget, this is the story of two families. And one of the storylines was the tennis player played by Robert Urich had an affair with Jessica the mother and Corinne the daughter. Okay, total soap opera, right? But, hilarious. Just hilarious. So I loved being there through all of that controversy. I even got a call one night on that first year before we were ever on the air.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Before you were on the air. But people had heard about the show, right?

Marsha Posner Williams: And there was articles being written not well about this show. And we were shooting, but we weren't on the air yet. I love to tell this story. And I'm working late outside Susan's office, and it's about 9 o' clock at night, 8 or 9 o'clock, and the phone rings and I pick it up and this guy says, okay.

Susan Lambert Hatem: We're going to take a quick break and we will be right back with Marcia Posner Williams.

Sharon Johnson: I'm so excited for the holidays.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Me too. Thanksgiving is my favorite, but it's hard to beat Christmas and Hanukkah. We celebrate both with our extended family. My favorite thing is to get cozy with my family in new bamboo pajamas.

Sharon Johnson: Cozy Earth has us covered for the holidays. Seriously, these pajamas are the softest. Get ready to swap those old flannels for some genuine luxury.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I like Cozy Earth bamboo pajamas because they're super soft, but most importantly, because they're not too hot. Flannels are too hot for me now. Visit cozyearth.com and use our exclusive 41% off code-- 80s TV ladies. That's right 8-0-s-T-V-L-A-D-I-E-S is our code to get you 41% off some cool soft bamboo pajamas.

Sharon Johnson: Can't wait to get mine.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I love it. Holiday pajamas. Here at 80s TV ladies, we love to shout out the amazing ladies of the 20th century. And we love podcasts who shout out amazing ladies of any time.

Sharon Johnson: So we want to tell you about the Art Muse podcast, hosted by Grace Anna. Every episode, they focus on telling the stories of the women pictured in the most famous works of art through history.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I love that idea for a podcast, y'all. Check out Art Muse podcast and hear Grace Anna reinterpret classic works of art. Who are these women and what are their stories? You can find out at artmusepodcast.com. Hey, we're back.

Sharon Johnson: Let's continue our great conversation with Marcia Posner Williams.

Marsha Posner Williams: And I pick it up and this guy says, I'd like the address of where I can write a letter about this show. And I was so tired, I decided to take him on. What do I have to lose? And I said, okay, but may I ask-- I'm happy to give you the address, but may I ask, what are you writing about? Have you seen the show? He said, no, it's not on the air yet. I said, so what are you writing about? He said, well, I read an article about what this show is. I said, okay, I understand. So what you're telling me is, is that you want to write a letter based on someone else's opinion. Is that what you're telling me? And I talked to this guy for 15 minutes, and he said, you know what? You're right. I'm going to wait and watch it myself and then make a decision. I said, and don't forget, television is art. If you don't like it, don't watch it. But who are you to tell anybody else that, huh? Because you don't like it, they shouldn't like it?

Susan Lambert Hatem: Can you answer every phone in America right now, please?

Marsha Posner Williams: But isn't that just common sense?

Sharon Johnson: It is, but sadly, there still isn't any common sense in this world, because that's exactly the way that things should work, even to this day. And sadly, it doesn't.

Marsha Posner Williams: I know, and, you're so right. But I must tell you, how many problems could we solve by just saying, what if it was you? Yeah, and that's why I'm a humanist. That's the religion I follow. I'm a humanist. Everybody is equal. Everybody should be treated equal, and everybody should be given a fair chance. What's wrong with that? Okay, so there you go now.

Susan Lambert Hatem: So can we take people back? Because I remember the controversy. I was not allowed to watch Soap or Three's Company, but I did watch both of them. but ultimately, what were the biggest controversies? Was it basically that Billy Crystal played a gay character?

Marsha Posner Williams: That was one of them. The second one was the adultery. And then also we had a priest, if you remember, Father Tim Flotsky, who wanted to leave the priesthood to marry his high school sweetheart. Because I guess that never happens in real life. And that was controversial.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And so it just became this target now. But it was called Soap, and it was a parody of soap operas.

Marsha Posner Williams: Well, because it was a continuing story every week, and every season was a continuation, which is why we used to do retrospectives up to 90 minutes at the beginning of each season to recap what happened last season. I know, because I used to be one of the team of three or four that did all those clips. Yes.

Susan Lambert Hatem: So there would be adultery on soap operas.

Marsha Posner Williams: Funny that.

Sharon Johnson: And in movies and in books? Really?

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah.

Marsha Posner Williams: Oh, my goodness.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And now here's my question about Billy Crystal's character.

Marsha Posner Williams: Yes.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Did he have a gay relationship in the show pilot? In the pilot, he's in the relationship.

Marsha Posner Williams: Well, I mean, I'm asking you to go back 50 years. But it started out with him and the football player.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Okay. All right. All right. It’s been a while since I--

Marsha Posner Williams: And then he wanted to have a sex change operation.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yes.

Marsha Posner Williams: I remember that when, his mother, Mary Campbell, the character, wanted to. She was so upset about him wanting to have a sex change operation. And she said a line that-- I swear to you, we recorded this line when we shot the show, but it's been taken out in syndication, where she says to him, out of desperation, Jody, it's not like getting a haircut. It doesn't grow back. And how funny is that line? Very. And they took it out.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Even in syndication, it's gone.

Marsha Posner Williams: And in syndication, I believe it's gone. I have to. Yeah, it was so, you know, people who syndicate these shows have no sense of humor. They just may want to make it shorter to make room for commercials. So I have no respect. But other than that, I do remember this sex change. Sorry, Sharon.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Go ahead.

Sharon Johnson: That's okay. I remember. I watched. I watched. So, I loved it, from the beginning.

Marsha Posner Williams: Thank you.

Sharon Johnson: I was, I was a few years older than-- I'm a few years older than Susan, so I didn't have anybody to tell me I couldn't or shouldn't. But yeah, and-- And as a longtime, even then, soap opera viewer, it was, it was clear to me, just this parody. But it was screamingly funny.

Marsha Posner Williams: And, and, and it was the only sitcom, especially of that time, in which you could be watching a scene and laughing so much, and by the end of it, you're sobbing. Sobbing.  

Susan Lambert Hatem: And what-- So you're working with Susan Harris at the very, like, very beginning.  

Marsha Posner Williams: Very beginning, yes.  

Susan Lambert Hatem: And you're watching this woman that's going to change the face of television, right?

Marsha Posner Williams: Yes.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And one of the women that's going to be the groundbreaking women of television. Did you know it? Were you like, this is it?

Marsha Posner Williams: No, No, I wasn't that smart. But I can tell you, after season one, they promoted me. So I knew something was happening. I knew being good at what I did was working. Right? Because now they promoted me to script supervisor. And I said, what? Script supervisor? How's that work? And back in those days, it was stopwatch to time everything. And how joyful and lucky was I to be on that stage five days a week with a cast of gigantic numbers with the greatest director in half hour television, which was Jay Sandrich. To be right there in the booth, on stage, timing everything and throwing lines out, it was joyful for me. But I also knew six weeks into that job, this is not what I want to do the rest of my career. Because it was--

Sharon Johnson: Yeah, that was going to be my question, if that made you feel like this is what I wanted or, hey, this is a start, but I want to go somewhere else.

Marsha Posner Williams: Yes. One of the wonderful things about that job is that I only worked when the stage was working. So we used to do three weeks on and then a week hiatus for catch up. Right? The office still worked, but the stage didn't work. So those down weeks on the stage I would spend in post-production learning all of that as much as I could. So that served more than one purpose. And then what happened was after the third season, now we do the pilot of Benson. Benson gets picked up. Now they've got two shows on the air and I get the call, you're being kicked back upstairs. So now the decision was made for me and it was a great decision because I did the whole season as a script supervisor. Got that under my belt. I still have the stopwatch they gave me. I still have it to this day. And now I'm upstairs and they're focusing on Benson while I'm really focused on Soap, on the last two years of Soap.

Susan Lambert Hatem: So they basically in some ways handed off. Is that when you became a producer?

Marsha Posner Williams: Well, then I was associate producer. And then it just, you know, everything just happened after that.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And was that, were you like, yeah, I want that job. Were you figuring out exactly what you want you just knew you wanted?

Marsha Posner Williams: I just fit in. It just happened and it worked. Yeah, it was thrilling. It was wonderful.

Sharon Johnson: What was it about that that you made you realize, this is where I need to be? This is the spot for me.

Marsha Posner Williams: Right. I loved sitting behind the desk and looking at a script and making suggestions or decisions on everything, which as a full-blown producer, that was my job. When a network or studio would hand me a script and a budget and say, try not to spend it all. And then every department head was, almost every department head was hired because of me or I did hire them and then I told them what they had to spend or not to spend and I had a modicum of control and I just loved overseeing all of that. And I'm also somebody who, if I don't know something, I'll tell you I don't know, but I'll find out who does. I'm never one of those people who thinks they know everything. Gee, who could that be? But anyway, we all know people like that, right?  

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yes. There's not too many of that in Hollywood.

Marsha Posner Williams: That's weird.

Susan Lambert Hatem: All right, so. But you were also on Benson, so were you splitting your time?

Marsha Posner Williams: Not at that point.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Okay. You stayed on Soap.

Marsha Posner Williams: I stayed on Soap. I did the pilot of Benson and then stayed on Soap. And then when Soap was over, I did, I think, a couple years of Benson.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Okay.

Marsha Posner Williams: And then things changed. All right.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And so, like, let's talk about the end of Soap.

Marsha Posner Williams: Yeah. Terrible. Yeah.

Susan Lambert Hatem: So what was going on on the stage and up in the offices?

Marsha Posner Williams: Well, they didn't realize. Don't forget, we had the right wing after us the whole time.  

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah  

Marsha Posner Williams: They went after all the advertisers. It was. ABC was a champ. They were really good at keeping us on the air. Despite the Moral majority, Focus on the Family, the right wing not realizing it's just a TV show, if you don't like it, don't watch it. And if enough people don't watch it, it'll go off the air. But, like, don't get me started. Okay. Just don't get me started. So at the end, the storyline kind of went off the rails and. And. But nobody thought in the world the show was gonna get canceled, but it did. It got, canceled. Jessica was about to face a firing squad, and we never know what happened.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Oh, well, now, was there ever any talk of a soap movie?

Marsha Posner Williams: No. Wouldn't have been the same.  

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah.  

Marsha Posner Williams: It wouldn't have been the same without--

Susan Lambert Hatem: Well, it hasn't stopped anybody else.

Marsha Posner Williams: I know, I know. But, you know, because the four, they're all gone. It just wouldn't be the same. just like with The Golden Girls. It just wouldn't be the same.

Susan Lambert Hatem: It's lightning in a bottle.

Sharon Johnson: Well, just for our own edification, by any chance, had they decided what was going to happen to poor Jessica in front of that firing squad?

Marsha Posner Williams: Not that I know of. Not at that point. Not at that point.

Sharon Johnson: Curses.

Marsha Posner Williams: Curses. I know, right? I agree. I agree.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Come on.

Marsha Posner Williams: I agree. This is crazy.

Susan Lambert Hatem: All right, so then you go on to Benson. What was it like? What was it like working with the Soap actors and actresses?

Marsha Posner Williams: Well, I loved Robert Guillaume. I just love that guy.

Susan Lambert Hatem: You have a great story about Soap.

Marsha Posner Williams: I do, and I'm so glad you asked. This is season one, when I was working with Susan. So we had a run through one day, right? And as was typical after the run through, Witt-Thomas-Harris would come back up to Susan's office. Jay Sandrich would come up to the office, and they'd talk about the run through, what kind of changes they might have to make. Susan's door was almost always open so I could hear if she needed me or anything. And in the middle of them talking, Ted Wass, who played Danny, comes into their office. And I hear him say, I can't believe it. I'm getting fan mail for the first time. This is so exciting. We had just been on the air, right? Okay, so now cut to a few weeks later. we go to run through. They come back up to Susan's office. They're all talking. In comes Ted again. And I hear Ted say, you're not gonna believe it. I'm getting all this fan mail now. It's so fabulous. But I got this one letter from a girl back east who said to me, she thought I was so handsome and so cute, and she said, I'll probably never get to meet you, but I just want you to know what it would be like if we spent one night together. And I hear Ted say, and this girl went into graphic detail, right? And everybody is just thinking, wow, this is. Whatever. Probably two or three years later, I told Ted I had written that letter, which I had. I spent two weeks writing this letter to perfection. I addressed it to him with a fake return address, dropped that in an envelope, put that envelope in another envelope, mailed it to my friend in New York and said, please drop this in the mailbox so it has an East Coast post stamp on it.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Oh, my God, you are a trickster.

Marsha Posner Williams: And you know what he said to me when I confessed? He said, I should have known it was you because it had a joke in it. That when you were done with me at the end of the night and I couldn't even see straight, when I went to leave and I opened the door and walked into the closet.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Oh, my God. So you fit right in.

Marsha Posner Williams: Yeah. Well, come on. It’s me. Is that a great story?

Susan Lambert Hatem: It's a great story. Well, because this is the time of fan letters, right? No Twitter.

Marsha Posner Williams: Right.

Susan Lambert Hatem: No Instagram. It's all, like, if you cared enough to write a letter, you cared.

Marsha Posner Williams: Someone was gonna read it.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Someone was gonna read it. Oh, my gosh.

Sharon Johnson: Did you ever think about being a writer? I mean, obviously, you're very, very good at,

Marsha Posner Williams: I'm very bad at looking at a blank page and doing something with it. But if somebody hands me something and I think I can make it funnier, I will make that suggestion. But, no, not a writer. I did write a joke book. I co-wrote a joke book, but it was a one liner joke book called How to Get Even with Your Ex, which Betty White had when she died and went up for auction. You can ask me about that later because that was crazy.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Oh my gosh. Anyway, all right, so you're on Soap, you're sending letters to the cast, telling about deep, dark sexual secrets.

Marsha Posner Williams: Who, me?

Susan Lambert Hatem: And then. But then they bring you on to Benson-- And so working with the cast- I think we were also talking about the casts of Benson. I'm curious about working with Inga Swenson and Missy Gold, what that was like.

Marsha Posner Williams: Oh, and Rene Auberjonois, Ethan Phillips. They were all fabulous, just fabulous. And I'm starting to laugh because I'm remembering something that happened on that show with Robert Guillaume and Didi Kahn, right?

Susan Lambert Hatem: Right.  

Marsha Posner Williams: Should I tell you what happened?

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yes, please.

Marsha Posner Williams: So, we had a director named John Rich, who was very, very well known for All in the Family, et cetera, et cetera. And John was an interesting character. I'll just leave it at that. So we're having a camera blocking run-through, which means we're watching the run-through on camera as they're-- Okay. Because all day they spent doing the shots with the cameras. Okay. So normally on a sitcom, on an audience sitcom, we would dry block, no cameras three days a week, bring in the cameras and the audio and all that block it, and then the next day you shoot it. Okay, so this is the camera blocking run-through. So everyone's in the booth. The directors, associate director, guest script supervisor, all them. And then the writers and me, we're in the booth, okay? And everyone on stage, the crew, they all have headsets on so they can hear the director and associate director. Right? Okay. So we do a scene and of course we have the monitors. We're all watching on monitors. And we finish the scene and the stage manager says, okay, moving on, wardrobe change. So we watch all the cameras move to the next set. And then the first two people to walk into the set were Robert Guillaume and Didi Conn. So while they're waiting for the rest of the cast, they kind of start horse playing with each other. And we're watching on camera, nothing's rolling because we don't have tape. And somehow or another Didi Conn gets her wire earring, which you know what those look like, caught in Bob's knit tie right on his chest. So her head is stuck right there and she's trying to extricate herself. And everybody on the floor and in the booth is laughing like crazy. And John Rich says, boy, I wish we were rolling tape. This would be so great for the blooper reel. And in the back row, big mouth over here says, and everybody on the floor heard it because the headsets were open. I said, you know, that reminds me of the time my boyfriend got his braces cut in my IUD.

Marsha Posner Williams: And everybody went to the floor except John Rich, who turned to me, his face was beet red, and he said, I can't believe I just heard you say that. Meanwhile, at that moment, I think I'm the funniest person on the planet because everybody was dying, right? Okay, cut to the next day. Tape day. I'm, the first one in the booth. Nobody's in the booth. The next person to almost walk in the booth, but stopped short when he saw me was John Rich. And he looked at me and this is exactly what happened. He said, well, Ms. Posner, what sexual perversion do you have for us today? And I thought, oh, pal, you just asked the wrong person. And without thinking for a split second, I said, funny you should ask, because just last night I perfected the back one and a half over the bedpost mount in the layout position. Degree of difficulty, 9.8. What'd you do? And he didn't talk to me the rest of the day.

Susan Lambert Hatem: You fit right in.

Marsha Posner Williams: Welcome to my world.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Oh my god. You-- I just love the idea that you stopped John Rich in his tracks.

Marsha Posner Williams: I completely stopped him in his tracks. Completely. Two days in a row.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Oh my god. Oh my god. All right, all right. There's so many questions. So many. Okay, so from Benson, you went on to Hail to the Chief>

Marsha Posner Williams: No, I did Night Court.

Susan Lambert Hatem: You did Night Court? Oh, yeah. So many shows.

Marsha Posner Williams: So many iconic shows.

Susan Lambert Hatem: So many iconic shows. Were they just like--

Marsha Posner Williams: Yeah, it was lucky me. And I still wasn't an actual producer producer yet on Night Court, but I was there. And the third season. And, it was at the end of the third season when I got a call from Tony who said, look, we're doing a show called Hail to the Chief. It's seven episodes, just like Soap. We need you back. And I said, well, I'll come in and I'll talk to you about it. Because I wasn't that happy at Night Court. And it was Night Court. I did its second season, and I knew it was going to go on. It was a big hit by that time, by the end of the second season. So I went in and I said to Tony, because they only had an order of seven episodes, Hail to the Chief. And I said, here are the following five conditions under which I will return. And I just named him off. And I said, take it or leave it, because I got a job.

Susan Lambert Hatem: But now Night Court was not Witt-Thomas.

Marsha Posner Williams: No, it was--

Susan Lambert Hatem: So this was you leaving the nest?

Marsha Posner Williams: I left the nest. And then they wanted me to come back. Yes.

Susan Lambert Hatem: That's nice.

Marsha Posner Williams: Yeah, of course, of course. But I said, these are the conditions.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And what were the conditions?

Marsha Posner Williams: I will talk about that later. But they said yes to everything because I said take it or leave it because I have a job. And I was feeling very confident at the time because I knew I could go back to Night Court without a problem. I loved Harry Anderson and John Larroquette, and I, mean, I loved the cast, and so I knew it'd be okay.

Sharon Johnson: Wow. This amazing conversation with Marcia Posner Williams is going to have to continue in part two. So next episode will be the rest of our truly phenomenal conversation with her. We want to make sure when we're recommending products that it's something we like. And that's exactly what Cozy Earth is all about. They've been on Oprah's favorite things list for years. We're talking about buttery software, bamboo sheets, and amazing pajamas. And we can offer you the best discount. 41% off. It's the ultimate in luxury sleep. Go to 80s TV Ladies’ My Deals link in the show notes. To see all our deals, use promo code 80STVLadies.

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