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Episode 21: Stan Zimmerman: The Journey from Golden Girls to Literary Stardom

Melissa Roth: Weirding Wayne Media.

Amy Englehardt [Singing]: 80s TV Ladies, So sexy and so pretty. 80s TV Ladies, Steppin’ out into the city. 80s TV Ladies, often treated kind of sh-[wolf whistle]. Working hard for the money in a man’s world. 80s TV Ladies!

Sailor Franklin: Welcome to the 80s TV Ladies where we celebrate female driven television of the 1980s. And thank you for being a friend. I'm Sailor Franklin, filling in for Melissa Roth. Here are your hosts Susan Lambert Hatem and Sharon Johnson.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Hello, I'm Susan.

Sharon Johnson: And I'm Sharon. And thank you, Sailor. Today we welcome back friend of the pod and writer for television, movies, plays and now books with his The Girls: From Holden to Gilmore, Mr. Stan Zimmerman.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Stan Zimmerman is a prolific writer, director, producer and actor. He is perhaps best known for his work with writing partner James Berg on the classic television female-driven comedies like Roseanne, Gilmore Girls and of course the Golden Girls. Stan also co-wrote the movies A Very Brady Sequel and last year's Lifetime hit Ladies of the 80s: A Diva's Christmas.

Sharon Johnson: If you want to hear our first interview with Stan talking about A Diva's Christmas and his break into Hollywood, you can check out season two, episode 20 of our show for From Golden Girls to A Diva’s Christmas with Stan Zimmerman. Welcome back to 80s TV ladies, Stan.

Stan Zimmerman: Thank you for having me back.

Sharon Johnson: We're so excited.

Stan Zimmerman: I was hounding you, please have me back, banging on your door, driving around your neighborhood and now we're actually here in person. It's fantastic.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Well, we had to get you to stop somehow.

Stan Zimmerman: Yes. As I fly on my way to Palm Springs. Yes.

Susan Lambert Hatem: We're super excited to talk about your book. It's really wonderful. I got a chance to read it. I bought a copy and I can't find it. Like I bought it and read it and then I couldn't find it because I wanted you to sign it while you were here. So I'm going to have to get you back. I'll just sign it.

Stan Zimmerman: Okay.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I'd love to but it was like as you see we have a lot of books.

Stan Zimmerman: Just a few.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And then we have more in the house. But yours is here somewhere.

Stan Zimmerman: I'm looking for the color.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I know.

Sharon Johnson: Well, I had fully intended to. And I will buy it as well. Because I have to order it from Barnes and Noble. They don't have it in store anymore. And just a lot's been going on the last couple weeks for me so didn't get to it, but I will.

Stan Zimmerman: I will give you a hall pass.

Sharon Johnson: Oh, thank you very much. Because. Because yeah, I can't wait.

Stan Zimmerman: Isn’t the book like, you thought it would be?

Susan Lambert Hatem: You know, it's more, personal. It's more personal. I was.

Stan Zimmerman: You thought it would just be like, spilling tea about all the shows that I worked on.

Susan Lambert Hatem: A little bit, but it's. It's very much about the journey of a TV writer. Right? And so that's—

Stan Zimmerman: The ups and downs, being knocked down multiple times.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yes.

Stan Zimmerman: And that's what people have commented, like, how do you keep getting back up? So it did become almost a spiritual book. But how do you reinvent yourself? How do you keep going? Where do you find the strength? luckily, through my writing partner, we pick each other up when each other's down. Very rarely have we both been down at the same time. There was a moment, and it's in the book, when we pulled over on PCH and we're hoping, like, a rock slide would come down and just, like, you know, knock us out. It was just, like, so many times being battered and so close and then not getting there. There's resilience and fighting, and, I think that was important to tell that part of the story. And I think it's also personal because I started the book by going through my journals, which I had kept since my NYU days. We had a dance teacher. I don't know why she asked us to start keeping journals, because I never would have done it on my own. And luckily, I was writing in my journals during every single TV show during Golden Girls and Roseanne and Gilmore Girls and pilots and Rita Rocks. So what I did was I-- Once I knew that the title of the book would be The Girls: From Golden to Gilmore, I thought, I can't write a book, and I've never done that.

Susan Lambert Hatem: What made you want to write it?

Stan Zimmerman: People asked. They would always ask me the question, like, how could you write for women? You're this guy. And I was like, all right, let me just explain it in the book. And so, not knowing how to write a book, I kind of outlined, but thought I would go chronologically. But I started going through. I said, the easiest first step is go through all the journals and pull all the, your quotes of all the women that you've worked with. But then I had to retype them into the computer. So as I'm typing them, I'm reliving it. I'm going, oh, wow. Oh, wow. And, like, oh, you were knocked down again, but you got to come back up, and you keep doing and doing it. And then that kind, of gave me the idea of what if I put those in the book and then comment on them as I'm the human being I am today. And it's very different. You know, you're very vulnerable. And I was very young when we started out, and what was going through my head and how has it changed with my thoughts on different people? Like, my attitude towards Betty White was very different back then than it is now. And her stamp is coming out, actually. It’s exciting. Did you buy it? You didn't buy that either. Did you buy books? Doesn't buy stamps.

Susan Lambert Hatem: We're saving our money.

Stan Zimmerman: Okay. Okay.

Susan Lambert Hatem: We're running to Canada.

Stan Zimmerman: Okay.

Sharon Johnson: But I'm curious about the journal. What was it that kept you doing, doing journaling?

Stan Zimmerman: It was just a good place to release thoughts. You know, they swirled a lot in my head, and I couldn't believe everything that I was seeing and the rooms that I was in. And, you know, all of a sudden, I'm at Jane Fonda's house, and then I'm sitting there getting stoned with Lily Tomlin. And then, like, holy moly. Just like, somewhere. Just put it down. I'm glad that I thought of that. Just keep it somewhere. Not knowing at the time that I would ever write a book, because I never thought I would ever do such a thing. I don't think I'll ever do it again.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Was there a journal entry that you had in the book and your editor said, don't take it out?

Stan Zimmerman: There's some that I pulled out that I felt would hurt people that are close to me or just, again, just to be gossipy if it didn't serve a purpose. I think if you. Well, when you read it, you'll find out it's a valentine to all these women. It's my love towards them. And yes, there's some gossipy things, but I didn't want to just be bitchy to be bitchy. And I know some people have written books and said some things. I'm like, oh, my god, I would never say that. So, yeah.  

Sharon Johnson: Are you still journaling?  

Stan Zimmerman: Of course. I'm going to be journaling about the two of you the minute I get out of. Get out of here. So watch what you.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I had this weird podcast with Sharon and Susan. Who do they think they are?

Stan Zimmerman: Yeah, just reading things. My publishers were a little concerned about the subtitle, of the book. So it's The Girls: From Golden to Gilmore. And the subtitle is ‘stories about all the wonderful women I've worked with and Roseanne.’ And so when we were doing the layout of it, I was saying ‘and Roseanne’ should be on the cover. And they're like, we shouldn't even have the subtitle. And what happens if she sees it? And blah blah, blah. I'm like, if she sees it, that's going to be a good thing. So the compromise was it's on the back cover, so you kind of have that and then flip-up book joke. Yeah. But pretty much everything. Once I got the first draft, they wanted me to go back and make it more like a script, actually, and make it dialogue rather than all just me telling the story from the journal point-of-view person. And at first I had a hard time with that because I didn't want to lie, like say, oh, Betty White said this and like quoting things. So I found a way to do it. And so that there was a nice balance.

Susan Lambert Hatem: It's very enjoyable. And then I'm, I'm, I'm curious about, you kind of start off the book with the three women that were most important--

Stan Zimmerman: In my life, yes. My mother, my grandmother, my sister. And I credit them, very smart, very funny, very verbal women. And I could listen to all that beautiful dialogue. And we were not shy about sharing our opinions with each other. And I think that's where I got that idea. And listening to women and how they talk differently, not knowing that actually that figuration of, of generations is exactly what Gilmore Girls was. Literally, my grandmother was very Emily Gilmore. And the fact that like Rory and Emily and my sister and my grandmother were very similar and my mother was kind of in the middle. So that was like a whoa moment when I sat there and went, oh, yeah, okay, I can do this. Yeah, I know this, I can do this. But I didn't know how quite it was going to end it because I just ended at Gilmore's for the title. And then I, we got the show Rita Rocks. And I was like, oh no, these are great stories about wonderful women. And then I started doing theater and playing, but I'm still doing all these plays with, about women. I'm writing plays about women. So I kept that going. And then as I'm writing it during COVID started, and then my mother had a stroke. And 13 days in hospice. And it was the worst 13 days of my life. And it was like, oh, [wolf-whistle] Can I swear?

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah.

Stan Zimmerman: [wolf-whistle] Oh, this is the end of the book. If I'm so honest during everything else, I have to talk about grief. And I think that's something people can relate to. And it does harken back to different things in the book. Like Golden Girls, when the first episode we wrote and we were about to shoot it that week, Bea Arthur's mother passed. So it's interesting, all these full-circle things that are connected in some weird way. And as I say in the book, we were gonna-- The producers offered to cancel the taping of the show.

Susan Lambert Hatem: This is for--

Stan Zimmerman: Blanche and the Younger Man, or Rose's Mother. We had two titles. I thought Blanche and the Younger Man could not be-- Like, I didn't see, ‘and the Emmy goes to—' But you could see the Emmy goes to Rose's Mother. That would be a little classier. But the Emmy did not go to--

Susan Lambert Hatem: No. But it could have. It should have.

Stan Zimmerman: We did get a Writers Guild nomination for it, so I was very thrilled for that. But Bea Arthur said, ‘no, I come from the theater. And then in the theater we say, the show must go on.’ And she just knew all these people that were employed, like, they need to go to work. So let's keep the plan and film it on Friday. And. But if you watch that episode, that scene between Bea and Estelle, when Estelle thanks Bea for treating her like a woman and not like an old lady. I mean, right now, even the hairs on my arms start standing up. Bea can't even look Estelle in the face because she knows she'll just break and start crying. That's real emotion.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah. That's amazing. Like, in that, you know, Bea Arthur was that old school, like--

Stan Zimmerman: Broad? Yes.

Susan Lambert Hatem: But also that old school actor of nothing stops for the show.

Stan Zimmerman: Yeah. And it's interesting to see where we are now. It's like, no. If people need, like, a day, mental day off, like, you take it. It's very different way of looking at things. And even just like, with illnesses, like, remember, if we had a cold or sniffles, we would just go to work. It's like, now it's like, stay home. Like, those sniffles could be something we don't even know. So it's just how the world has changed.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I know, but. Okay, so let's talk about the episodes that you are in.

Stan Zimmerman: Okay.

Susan Lambert Hatem: We're not going to talk about the world changing yet. We'll get to that.

Stan Zimmerman: Okay.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I want to talk about the Golden Girls part of the book and the episodes that you and Jim wrote.

Stan Zimmerman: Okay. But people have to understand, which they really don't. They think, so because our names are on three of those. So when we. The first one was just a freelance episode, and because we wrote such a great first draft, they brought us on immediately on staff on season one. And the only reason I think we got those voices down is because, you know, I was raised with, you do your homework. We went to all the tapings between getting the job, and they started filming them. They were not on the air yet. Remember, this is just the summer before the show went on the air in 1985. Yeah, yeah. So we're just watching the tape on the writing. Oh, they say that, oh, look, you know, Rose has all these long stories. So we put that in the show. Like, we're smart enough to know these are runners. This is the characters. Let's lean into what we saw. So I think they got that. And for a writing staff to get a good first draft that everyone can work off of, that's like gold. So that's why they brought us on staff. We were not contracted to write any other episodes, but the writing staff was like, no, this is good. Let them go off and write another one. We can, you know, then we can just rewrite it. So then. And we kept writing good ones. That's why we ended up with three. But you, as a writing staff, you work on all the episodes. So even if you're. It's not written by. We're in the room, you're pitching jokes. I don't remember which jokes I pitch for that. I mean, there's so much craziness that goes on, but a lot of people don't understand that. And even, like, Susan Harris didn't understand that when— It's in the book about when there's a phone call and I put the words that she left on Jim's phone. Ah, not machine, whatever it is. Voicemail, you know, and she was complaining about something, and, oh, you only wrote three. Not to put her down, because she created. She's an amazing writer. And, she was in pain when she made the phone call, but-- She had Epstein-Barr, which was an autoimmune disease, so she couldn't come into work. So when she would write a script that week, we had an easy week because we really didn't rewrite very much of it. It was mostly trimming for time. We were in the trenches there every day. So for her to say, oh, you only wrote three episodes. I want to say, honey, we were there. You weren't. I mean, she couldn't be. But, you know, you have to give credit. We were all there as a group. And it doesn't matter if you're story editors or staff writers or executive, you know, producer writers on the show. You're all in the room together. You're all eating the same food, drinking the same coffee.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah, it's a very, like, you know, that's a story that happened to you. And she called and left a, a mean message, a terrible message that.

Stan Zimmerman: She got me on the phone. Like, unlike Jim, I picked up the phone not knowing it was her, and it was just like. And this was around the me-too moment. So I didn't want to, like, you know, I wanted her to speak her mind. But then I just said, Susan, Susan. Like, just hold on a second. You know how the business works. And every interview, like, including this one, I say, you're the genius behind it. You wrote the pilot. You came up with the characters. I mean, she's genius that, that she did that.

Susan Lambert Hatem: But this was in response to there being an announcement somewhere that there was going to be a quote, unquote, Golden Girls for men.

Stan Zimmerman: Yeah. Silver Foxes, which ended up being a play. And we license and publish it in the Drama Bookshop in New York, which I still can't believe.  

Susan Lambert Hatem: Congratulations.  

Thank you. So we did a big production in Dallas with the brilliant Michael Urie, who was on the Apple show Shrinking when he directed it, and with Uptown Players. They just commissioned us to write a sequel to it. So we're doing The Silver Foxes 2 now. It's been done in Columbus. I'm going back to, the end of October to Detroit, my hometown. They're doing a production there. We're hoping to do it in Palm Springs sometime very soon. So now it's being done all over the place,which is very exciting.

Susan Lambert Hatem: That is very exciting. And it. I mean, it's, That's a. It's a weird thing to get upset about because, like, there's a Golden Girls on a train like, every other season. Like, you know, everything's announced and just.

Stan Zimmerman: Because, you know, the Hollywood Reporter calls this pilot or this play, it's an easy way to say it's a gay men's Golden Girls. That's like a headline. And that's what I said to her. I'm not saying it. They're saying it. And then she kind of got it.

Susan Lambert Hatem: She got it.

Stan Zimmerman: Yeah.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah. You know, it's a lot of emotion in Hollywood.

Stan Zimmerman: Well, she also. Paul Witt, her husband, had just passed, so I think.

Susan Lambert Hatem: You think she was.

Stan Zimmerman: I think she was still in the grieving period. And I think that, probably she was. You know, there was some memorial service, and people were coming up to her thinking, hey, congratulations. I hear Golden Girls is being rebooted. And, you know, once is fine, but if you're bombarded with that, it can be. It can be hurtful.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah.

Sharon Johnson: When Assad Kelada was kind enough to talk with us, he mentioned that he had spent several years watching sitcoms being made so he could learn how it all worked. And you mentioning that you were able to go and see a couple episodes before you guys wrote yours, which, of course--

Stan Zimmerman: While we were writing.

Sharon Johnson: Right. Which is totally invaluable. First of all, there weren't that many sitcoms that are shot before a live audience that much anymore.

Stan Zimmerman: Anymore. But back then, yeah, there were a lot of them.  

Sharon Johnson: Yes.  

Stan Zimmerman: Some seasons there were, like, 17. And we would have our pick, like, which show do you want to write? You know, and now there's.

Sharon Johnson: Yeah, well, yeah, well, maybe two.

Stan Zimmerman: Yeah.

Sharon Johnson: But. But hardly any, basically, which unfortunately, is too bad. Did they know you were perhaps being considered and let you come and watch or, something like that? ‘Cause I think with Assad, it was something like he met a couple of people and they were kind enough to let him come and just learn.

Stan Zimmerman: Well, before that, we did have a mentor, Gary Keeper, who has since passed, and he worked at Paramount. So when we did move out here, we couldn't afford to even go to movies, so we would just go to free tapings of things. We went to Laverne and Shirley. We went to, actually one of the first episodes of Cheers before it was on the air. So it was that summer between them picking up the pilot in the spring to airing in September. And Jim and I looked at each other. We went, this is exactly our style of writing. And we ran back, home, and we started writing a Cheers spec script. Now, no other writer had seen Cheers, so we were the first Cheers spec out there. So when that came out, it, like, our life changed instantly. And we had written an Alice, a Love Sydney, a Facts of Life. But that Cheers script, Cheers script was-- I mean, people just like, oh, my god, like this. They loved the show. Before it became popular, it was in the industry, it was, like, considered a very classic show. So, that change, but I think, like, Golden Girls just being there and watching week after week and, you know, back then, seasons were, you know, over 20 episodes.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah, It was 25 episodes.

Stan Zimmerman: Yeah. So that was like school for us, writing sitcom 101. And I was just talking to someone about playwriting, and they were like, well, do you want to work with the director and they can help you with cuts? And I'm like, you know what? I don't need help with cuts. When you think about, like, a playwright during their lifetime, maybe writes two, three, four, or five plays, think of how many half hours I worked on. And if you just even take, like, my show, Rita Rocks. I was in the editing room for 40 episodes. That's like 40 little plays that I had to get cuts down to the exact second to go on the air. So I think I know about cuts in a good way. Like, this is, like, this is my experience that I can bring to the table. Even though some people are like, ah, it's too much. That's just. That was my training.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah. And so what was it like to be there, the two of you?

Stan Zimmerman: Scary as hell. Think of it. Think of it. You're going to work, and you're looking at Bea Arthur, and Bea Arthur is saying words that you wrote, or you have to write words for Bea Arthur. Let's just stop there.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah.

Stan Zimmerman: Then you add Betty White. Then you add Rue McClanahan. Then you add Estelle Getty. Then you have Witt, Thomas, Harris. That was like, did Soap and like, I mean, that's a lot for any. Especially a young person coming to LA.  

Susan Lambert Hatem: How old were you guys?  

Stan Zimmerman:  I’d say 15, but we. Yeah, but obviously not. Just at the very, very beginning. Yeah. Of our careers. And that was frightening. And then you want to get your option picked up, which it was. And then you want it picked up for season two, which it was not. Even though Susan Harris said to us at the wrap party, see you in a couple months. That was very hard to take. And it was the first, like, knock down. Like, you know, I was raised, you do good work, you move up the ladder. And we were doing good work. And we got nominated for a Writer’s Guild award. No, I mean, there was. And then it was like, oh, there's politics involved. It's a lot more than just doing good work in this business and in most businesses.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah.

Stan Zimmerman: Not even just in Washington, but here in beautiful Hollywood, there's politics involved, and you have to learn how to navigate those politics. And that's a whole other ball of wax.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And sometimes politics have nothing. There's nothing to do with you.

Stan Zimmerman: They have nothing to do with you.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Right. They have nothing to do with you.

Stan Zimmerman: First, it has nothing to do with your quality of work. And then it has nothing to do with you. It's other things. And especially back then. And now too there's this toxic masculinity that we had to walk in. And as closeted gay men there was all that. So that's just a lot to navigate when you're a young person and you're in the closet and you're trying to hide who you are to keep getting work.

Sharon Johnson: Politics, political politics at work is always difficult. It's almost never personal. But it's. But it's still the. One of the hardest things you have to learn how to navigate in whatever business it is. Yeah.

Stan Zimmerman: Do your work. And it's odd because in your work you have to be really sensitive to do good work. But then so I tell when I teach acting, it's show business. There's the show part where you're vulnerable and everything is out there and it's just oozing. And then there's a business you have to put on a hard hat. So it's like da da da hat and then hard hat to protect yourself. And it's like. And some people, it's just too much for them and they can't handle it. And I think for whatever reasons we have been able to. And I think that's why we have some longevity or also having a writing partner that you can just laugh at with and go like did you just see what the [wolf whistle] they said? Or did that really happen? Or wait, Roseanne is, has to be written out of this week's episode because she's getting electric shock? I mean like what? And like. But we had each other to.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I was gonna say and how do you navigate that relationship? So fascinating.

Stan Zimmerman: I never thought I could because I had never really been in a romantic relationship but a business relationship. I just, I didn't first of all think I could be a writer because I didn't read. But then as a young 16, 17-year-old teenager in the suburb of Michigan, I knew there was going to be somebody out there. I didn't even know a writing partner was, but I knew there was somebody that could complete me in a way. And I came through it from an acting background and he came through, through journalism. So we came together with that and we just naturally went into this thing and we came up with our business name. So we were like in college we agreed we'd be known as Zimmerman Berg. I don't know why we said that and then. But we would be credited as James Berg and Stan Zimmerman. Which we thought, well that's fair. And then early on we had this thing like, let's not talk during the weekend. And that way, Monday when we got together to write, we'd be like. And we kind of kept that going through the years until, like, we had, like, certain assignments and just we had to get together on weekends. and it's really been just an interesting journey. And, you know, there have been ups and downs, which I talk again about in the book.

Susan Lambert Hatem: You talk about that in the book a lot, which is really interesting because, you know, the writing partnership is fascinating to me. Right? I've written with people, but I never had a long term writing partnership.

Stan Zimmerman: We're still doing it.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And you're still.

Stan Zimmerman: How crazy is that, that all these years later? You know, I mean, there were years where it was like five days a week, and then on weekends I was writing my plays with another person. And now it's not as much because, he kind of had a midlife crisis and didn't want to spend all those hours on a sitcom. And I'm like, what? Like, I thought, this is what we're working for. So that was a real shocker. That was around the Gilmore Girls time. And I was like, oh, okay. And that's when I started going back into theater and then directing plays and then ultimately writing plays. And, and all those weekends of writing plays now have come to fruition, and I'm directing those plays all over the country. And now he's like, hey, where are you going now? It's like, let's come back and write this or that. I'm like, well, I--

Susan Lambert Hatem: I'm busy.  

Stan Zimmerman: People seem interested in these plays, and I love going to different towns and doing them. And, that's been just a really exciting new chapter of my life.

Susan Lambert Hatem: That is exciting. That is really, really cool. Okay, so back to the Golden Girls.

Stan Zimmerman: Back to Golden Girls.

Susan Lambert Hatem: You're on season. You're in season one. Blanche and the Younger Man, Rose's Mom—

Stan Zimmerman: The Flu.  

Susan Lambert Hatem: Well, and then Adult Education and The Flu. Which was the one that you wrote, the first one that got you the staff gig? Was it Blanche?

Stan Zimmerman: No, Blanche and the Younger Man.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Okay, so this first one, because it's. It does. It's a beautiful Golden Girls.

Stan Zimmerman: I don't know how we did. It still shocks me sometimes. So years later, I was actually on set of Hot in Cleveland, and I was observing the director because people said, stan, you're directing theater. You should be directing sitcoms. I'm like, okay, some nice money in that. And it felt the natural. I shadowed the director for 13 shows. And still couldn't get a job. A lot of those directors were like, I'm not giving him an episode. I'm like, you're directing 15, 20 episodes. You couldn't give me one. But anyway, I learned a lot, and I met a lot of wonderful actors through that. But I was on Hot in Cleveland, and Todd Milliner, one of the producers, knew me, and he says, oh, we're doing benefit for Celebration Theater. And Celebration Theater had given me my first directing theater gig. And they said, we're going to do the cast of Hot in Cleveland reading a script of the Golden Girls. Can you recommend an episode from the series in any of the years? I'm like, Todd, you're going to do one of mine. Hello. And he's like, well, can you email it to me? I'm like, Todd, we wrote them on typewriters. There's no-- What am I going to do? I can fold it up. And what. SoI said, I'm going to go home and I'm going to bring my original copy, and you're going to treat it like it's, you know like, it is golden. It is gold. It is definitely gold. And I was like, I watched it as I copied. I'm like, I thought the machine would eat it up or something. And we did Blanche and the Younger Man. I got to watch. Betty White do it, but she would not play Rose.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah. So who did she play?

Stan Zimmerman: She wanted to play Dorothy.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Of course she did.

Stan Zimmerman: Which that, to me is like, you don't need the therapist to figure that one out. But anyway, that was quite interesting. And seeing the great Wendy Malik in that whole of Valerie Bertinelli and I went down to rehearsal before. They just rehearsed it once. And then we had a sellout on the set at CBS Radford. And I'm just listening. I'm going, what young man would write this story? And the way the words and the way they talk, it was like, I don't. Yeah. But it was the most magical evening. And I think they had to, like, pry me from the set to leave because I just was soaking it all in. It was such a beautiful. Really a full circle, cool moment.

Susan Lambert Hatem: That is so cool. That is so cool. And so the lines. There's some famous lines from that. What's your favorite? Do you have one?

Stan Zimmerman: “In what, Blanche, dog years?” Yeah, that's so. That was in, I think, the rough draft. So what made us write “in what ‘comma’ Blanche ‘comma’ dog years”? Why did we put it in that order? We just heard it in those voices and it's like the perfect order, but it doesn't really make sense, you know. But coming out of her mouth is like, of course she has to say it that way.

Susan Lambert Hatem: It's all that watching her.

Stan Zimmerman: I think, just watching. Yes. And that, that's an art unto itself, which I learned at a young age when I started taking acting classes at age seven and a half. And they said, just go watch. Listen to other people. Observe people. An actor is about observing and listening. And I just took that, did that in my acting and I put that into my writing.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I think that's also the writer. The power of the writer is the power of listening.

Stan Zimmerman: Yes.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah. Anyway, yes, that's, I think my favorite line from the show.

Stan Zimmerman: Even, like when we saw the Cheers, we noticed, you know, when, Cliff or whatever come in, they would just come in and go, hey, hey. Right? We would never write that. That's not a joke. But if you notice when they come in, they go, hey, hey. We're like, oh. So when we did our Cheers spec and we did hey, hey. People were like, why would they even know to do that? There was no scripts to read.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah.

Stan Zimmerman: You know, but we heard that's what they did each time they came in and it was just part of their vernacular.

Susan Lambert Hatem: It's very important if you want to be a writer that you study--

Sharon Johnson: What you want to write.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And you break it down and you. And then you.

Stan Zimmerman: But now you can, you can get copies of scripts everywhere and so you can read it. Oh, that's the way they did it. Like when we were doing our first spec script of Alice, there was no Alice spec scripts that I could get in New York in my little fifth floor walk-up studio with two burners and half of a refrigerator. I had to sit and watch episodes of Alice with a notepad and go, okay, they have like, I would time it. Okay, they have a two-minute little thing and then a commercial. Then the show comes back and then there's like three scenes. Commercial, three scenes. And then the tag. I didn't know it's a tag and this little thing at the end. And then I'd watch the next episode. It's like the same thing. I'm going, hey, you know, there's a format to it. And that's how we learned the format.

Susan Lambert Hatem: That's the assignment that my husband, who when he's teaching writer, he's a writer too for TV, and the first thing he does if he's working with somebody, it's like, I want to write a this. It's like, go watch one.

Stan Zimmerman: Watch it. Yes.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Write it down. Because once you write it down, it becomes.

Stan Zimmerman: You can see it.

Susan Lambert Hatem: You can see it.

Stan Zimmerman: Yeah. Even if you want to direct, like, multi-cam, I say even to actors. Look at, like a show like Friends, you can literally count. If you just did 1, 2, 3, 4 cameras, you could go. You could go, this shot, 1 4, 3, 3, 2, 1 4. You can start seeing it. And it's like, oh, that's how it's put together.  

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah. All right. So of the three, of the three episodes--

Stan Zimmerman: Episodes with our names on it.

Susan Lambert Hatem: With your names on it. And I know you worked on all of them.

Stan Zimmerman: But I got some funny questions on the last cruise. Someone would say to me, so, were you in the room with those four ladies? And I'm like, no, Rose, I was in, Altadena, whatever, writing it. Of course I was in the room with them. What do you think? Where, like, did they rehearse it? Like, what, are you crazy? Of course they rehearsed it. I went to work. I saw them at work. They were my co-workers. I say it in a loving way, but, a little. I throw a little, you know, little Dorothy in and come on, let me have some fun.

Sharon Johnson: But I can understand if you're not sometimes, you know, in some level, if you're just watching it at home and not thinking about how it's made, because that was me. These people are just sitting there and these things just come out of their mouth. You don't think about.

Stan Zimmerman: I have said some things on Facebook when. These Facebook groups. And I'm in a lot of them, and they don't.

Susan Lambert Hatem: You're in ours.

Stan Zimmerman: Yeah, of course. And there's a herring scene at the, at the table, you know, and, and Betty White says something and the other women laugh. Well, people say, oh, Betty White ad libbed that. And she cracked them up. And I'm like, hello. No. Like, every word was written. And then people start fighting. It's like, well, what do you know about it? And someone say, he's wrote it.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah.

Stan Zimmerman: And then people like Marcia, other people that worked on the show will send copies of the script with the actual words. And I think it's a testament to their acting that it looked like it was improv. And they're so talented, but they said every single word that was written. And unlike any other TV show I've been on they thanked the writers in every interview. If you ever, you know, go to YouTube and. Yeah, like, whether it's, you know, Merv Griffin, any talk show, they say it's the writers. They don't just say the writer. Susan Harris. They knew it was collectively this crazy group of people over the years.

Sharon Johnson: Let's take a quick break. We'll be right back.

Susan Lambert Hatem: All right. Welcome back. So, anyway, let's talk about, like, you coming in to Golden Girls. How did your agent or whoever sent you over describe it?

Stan Zimmerman: What do you mean?

Susan Lambert Hatem: Like, okay, you're gonna go meet all this.

Stan Zimmerman: How do they pitch to us or to them?

Susan Lambert Hatem: To you.

Stan Zimmerman: We were running around. Yeah. It was just another meeting. Remember at that time, the idea of a show about four older women in Miami? Like, you go, well, it's cute, but no one's gonna watch that. That's what. That was a conventional wisdom. So we were out pitching. We had been on staff, and then we did a bunch of, freelance episodes. Like, we wrote an episode of Fame, that, this unknown person, a little person called Janet Jackson, was in.

Susan Lambert Hatem: We talked about that on our last episode. Yeah.

Stan Zimmerman: Yeah. And Debbie Allen directed. And then, so we were out pitching to Family Ties, and we did get an episode of Valerie, which ends up turning into the Hogan Family. And then we went and pitched to Golden Girls. So you go in because there was no computers to, like, send us the pilot. You went into the office, and then you sit in a room and watch the pilot. And then you go away and you come up with episode, ideas, and you come back and pitch them.

Susan Lambert Hatem: The same day or--

Stan Zimmerman: No, they give you a couple days. Yeah. Sometimes, they're very awkward. Like, there'll be some producers that will sit with you. That's like. Yeah, that's weird. No, because we like to like, oh, that's not funny. Or, oh, that's fantastic. Whatever. So, we. We went and pitched to the Valerie family. Got that. And went and pitched to Golden Girls. Got that. So something just. I don't know why. Maybe it was our agent said this, this could be something. You should focus on this. So we told Valerie, like, you can. They bought the story, but we didn't write it, and we just focused everything on Golden Girls. And I'm glad we did.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah. And then what? You know, so you get. Now you get hired.

Stan Zimmerman: Somehow. Somehow. I don't know how suddenly, you know, and then it went from. Yeah, I mean, but it was, before they filmed our episode.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah.

Stan Zimmerman: You know. So it was like they just knew from that draft. And then suddenly they're like, and now you're at Sunset Gower. And then. And here's your office. Like, okay, here's our office. And then they said, and then there's, like, this PA Guy, who's going to be watching because we want to just teach him how sitcoms are done. It was Chris Lloyd, who co-created Modern Family. And he's sitting on the couch watching me and Jim freak out every day. So he had like a. It was like theater to him. He's like, what? What? This is a great show. And we're just like. And we weren't shy. We just kind of forget he was there. And we would just go, oh, my god, what are we doing? And then they would say, you know, from another episode, we need what's called a blow, the end of a scene. Like, we need, Bea Arthur, or maybe with Sophia, to have the last joke of the scene. You two go off and come up with five and then come back in the room and pitch it to us. Not intimidating at all to go on and pitch to, like, these Soap and Benson writers. And, and Jim, would usually say, like, you do it. You're the actor. So then I would go in and I would, you know, I would do my Blanche, and, you know, I'm just devastated. Like, I would, like, become a drag queen right there in front of everybody. But I had to sell the joke. And they would laugh and they would pick one, and it would go into the. But we would sat. We sat in that room, and we can't do it. We're not joke writers. We're not funny. We don't know how to do it. And then we just, like, you don't have a choice, you know, and you have to do it or you're not going home. So, we learned to do it.

Sharon Johnson: It's just so interesting listening to you talk about, in so many ways, how things were at the time when you started working on Golden Girls. And just from what. Obviously, much little, I know, it seems like things in a lot of ways are very, very different, whether it be how you get the material, how you. As you were being considered, you. You walk in some place.

Stan Zimmerman: I literally type the material.

Sharon Johnson: Yeah.

Stan Zimmerman: And there's that.

Sharon Johnson: Yeah. And. And. And get your. And be able to, to see what it is they're asking you to, to work on or to pitch something about--

Stan Zimmerman: Even in the writer's room. I mean, now they have it up on. On the screen. And then there was no screen to put it up on. It was just someone there writing, taking notes, and then they would go off and I guess type it in and then we would read it. So we'd be waiting a lot of times for them to make copies of things for us to read. Whereas, like, now you can just all see it on the screen. Or, they could go right to your computer and do it.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I was visiting, a friend of mine that's on an animated show, the new, Phineas and Ferb.

Stan Zimmerman: I know Martin. Was Martin there?

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah, Martin was there.

Stan Zimmerman: I love Martin. Martin. You know Martin.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I know Martin. I also know, Michael Matthews, by the way.

Stan Zimmerman: Oh, well, you know, Martin is a, mentor at the Castle. Right? We just spent, some time with him in France.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah, delightful.

Stan Zimmerman: Having dinner with him next week.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Okay. We'll say hi for me.

Stan Zimmerman: I will definitely do that.

Susan Lambert Hatem: But it was so funny because they were zooming with other writers, producers. They had the script up, they were punching it up. And it was happening in real, like.

Stan Zimmerman: Real time.

Susan Lambert Hatem: It was real time. And you're like, this is so crazy.

Stan Zimmerman: Like, it's crazy.

Susan Lambert Hatem: It's crazy how fast it is now.

Stan Zimmerman: And the writer's assistant, like, they would hear, like a room full of writers and they would like, put all the jokes down and then certain ones would get in there. Like, how do you do that?

Sharon Johnson: Yeah, that in and of itself--

Stan Zimmerman: I could never have done that.

Sharon Johnson: Yeah, it's crazy. But I would imagine in some ways it's made things easier. But in some things--

Stan Zimmerman: I think easier.

Susan Lambert Hatem: But it's also, you know, I think the challenge for all of, like, filmmaking is easier. But then a lot of bad decisions get made at the last minute somehow still.

Stan Zimmerman: How is that possible?

Susan Lambert Hatem: Because you don't have to plan. I think it's now you don't have to plan.

Stan Zimmerman: What do you mean?

Susan Lambert Hatem: I think for effects driven movies in particular.

Stan Zimmerman: You mean just type in AI or--

Susan Lambert Hatem: Not only type in AI, but I imagine that somebody came up with that, like, oh, she drops the thing in the thing in Snow White. And then later it's like.

Stan Zimmerman: Or like an executive says, yeah, we need that. Yeah, had a portal. We did some testing and you have to have a portal. And like, how the hell am I putting a portal? And then we can put a [wolf whistle] portal in. And suddenly I got a portal.

Sharon Johnson: Well, from a technology standpoint, I worked at marketing at ABC for a number of years in the promo department. So they would cut all of the and produce all of the reels for all of the new shows. Now before satellites came along, they had to have everything done by like whatever time, had the tapes at the airport by the time the last plane was flying to New York to get it there in time. But now when you have something, somebody indecisive working on it, there were times when in the middle of the show, they're working on the ending. It's not done because somebody said, because they knew it could be done, oh, we want to change this, we want to fix that. We want to. This isn't, you know, whatever. So there's an upside and a downside with everything to the technology of it. But more than that, I'm just thinking about in terms of what the two of you as writers. You have this chance to go in and you're sitting and you're watching the episode of say, The Golden Girls as we were talking about. It just seems like you had more time to really do thinking and had more time to at least initially or at least sometimes as opposed to trying to, you know, figure out 50 things to do or. Some people aren't making decisions because they don't have to at the last minute, you know, up until the very last minute. And I don't know what degree that even makes any sense actually.

Stan Zimmerman: Yeah, but you have to like get dressed and get in the car and go over there and then park and our, you know, and now you can like. I can just like walk, you know, five steps and get on Zoom. Like the time that saves. It's a lot.  

Susan Lambert Hatem: It's a lot. And then it's more fun to come in person.

Stan Zimmerman: It is. That's why, that's why I came out here to beautiful Pasadena.

Susan Lambert Hatem: All right, so going back to your book.

Stan Zimmerman: Okay.

Susan Lambert Hatem: You have so many stories in your book about so many amazing women and your friendship with them.

Stan Zimmerman: Yes.

Susan Lambert Hatem: You want to talk about some of them? Like Sandra Bernhardt?

Stan Zimmerman: Oh, I love Sandy, as we call her.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I would like to know-- I think you need to tell the story about how you ended up in a women's bathroom with Sandra Bernhardt and Madonna.

Stan Zimmerman: Madonna on the washing-- What's that called? Where you wash your hands?

Susan Lambert Hatem: The counter, I guess.

Stan Zimmerman: That's a counter, right?

Susan Lambert Hatem: The sink basin area.

Stan Zimmerman: Yeah, whatever. It was this like down and dirty club on Pico and we would, you know.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Here in LA.

Stan Zimmerman: Here in LA. Yeah,  

Susan Lambert Hatem: Not in New York.  

Stan Zimmerman: Down in Pico. we would go dancing and it was just a super cool club. And I knew the owners and Sandra would come because we all were hanging out with the same group of people. And then, by that point, she was friends with Madonna. And then all of a sudden, the door swings open and it's Madonna and Warren Beatty together. So they were dating at that time. And then I just remember them, like, he would just sit in the corner. He'd be like, yeah, you just go dance with your, with your gay boyfriends. And then all of a sudden, we're on the dance floor with Madonna. So, like, think of that. You're like, how did that happen? And then Sandra just said, like, I'm coming to the bathroom. Come with me or something. And then I'm like, okay. And then there's Madonna in there, and there's just the three of us. And I think I was trying to buddy up to her, like, show her. That was, like, cool. I'm like, I'm from Michigan, too. And, you know, I don't know if it worked. I mean, obviously it didn't, because we didn't become fast friends. No. Why didn't she want to hang out with me and drag me on David Letterman? But, I so respected her and I loved her music and still do. And it was just fun to be in that orbit. But it was just like. And people say, oh, you do a lot of name-dropping. But that's who came to the club where I was dancing with friends. You know, it wasn't. That was just Madonna there. So, yeah, it's very exciting.

Susan Lambert Hatem: They were name-dropping ‘cause they're like, oh, let's go to that club where Stan says, yeah.

Stan Zimmerman: I’m sure they were doing that. No, no. But nobody cared about me. I mean, that's what's kind of fun about doing these cruises and fan festivals, like, for you know, two days on a weekend. Like, people care about me or know who I am or, you know, they always. Everyone's so great. But they always started with, like, we hate to bother you. And I said, you're not bothering me. For a writer, it's so exciting for me to hear, like, what did the show mean to you? That's why, like, I see, you know, obviously Golden Girls means something.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah.

Stan Zimmerman: So to hear all those stories come back for writer. Because we're, you know, usually invisible. We're watching and observing and listening. Actors get it all the time, but we can just be. So that's kind of fun to go and to do that and to have that energy just come at you, you know, wherever you. Wherever I go. And then I come back to our LA and it's like, you know, step aside. Knocking me over, you know, at wherever it is, Ralph's or whatever supermarket. And, so it is a little bit of a, like, okay, you're back to reality. All right.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I know, but you've had so many. Like, we love you. Okay? And you, like, you know, again, in the book, it's so you're like, oh, you know. And then you're going to Carrie Fisher parties.

Stan Zimmerman: To get invited to the Vanity Fair party. And, you know, we all watched it at home in our pajamas, which I did. Then I dressed, got in the car, went to the Vanity Fair party, and I'm standing next to Oprah Winfrey that I just saw on TV in that outfit. And I'm like, why am I wearing this little shmata? And, so it's like, I think people like this, just this Midwestern boy somehow ended up in these little spots. And it's funny and weird, and I, you know, still have all the baggage of being that, like, just nerdy theater kid that somehow landed here and ended up in certain places.

Susan Lambert Hatem: In certain places. But at what, like, was there a point where you're like, either you and Jim or you were like, I made it?

Stan Zimmerman: I never think of it that way. It's like, it's always moving. I think when I was younger, I thought that, you got to this, like, plateau, and you could just like, I'm just gonna hang here. No, you ain't hanging anywhere. It's like, you want to. You got to keep going. You got to keep moving up because it's. It's changing or people are passing you by. And so it's always.

Susan Lambert Hatem: There's always something.

Stan Zimmerman: It's always work, and it's exciting. And I think it's important to be in the present and appreciate and how lucky you are. But it's never about, like, oh, look where I am. It's like, look where I am. Oh, my god. You know, that's kind of. And it just keeps going like, oh, my god, I'm here. I'm like, I'm going to be in a, you know, a castle in France or in Italy. Like, how did I get here? It’s like I walked into this fairy tale, and I'm so grateful and have always been. And I think that's the, being raised, you know, by my mother and in the Midwest in this little suburb of. To really appreciate each moment, whether it's on the set, when I'm standing there at Sunset Gower looking one side is a bleacher full of all these people I don't know. And then there's Bea Arthur and Betty White and Rue McClanahan and Estelle Getty. And they're saying my lines and they're laughing at my lines and that's just like, whoa.

Susan Lambert Hatem: That's amazing.

Sharon Johnson: And I would imagine that that's the kind of approach, that's the kind of thought that helps keep people grounded, if you will, in this crazy town. Because it always seems like no matter where you are, there's somebody higher up the food chain than you. There doesn't seem to. And it's really easy to get sucked-- I need-- You know, this is great. But I'm looking beyond the, how wonderful things are right now today.

Stan Zimmerman: It's appreciated and I have a lot of friends and I've talked. I think I talk about this in the book. Where they'll sell a pilot and I'll go, congratulations. I'll call them up and it's never gonna happen. Like you just sold it two hours ago. Like you can't even enjoy. Like—

Susan Lambert Hatem: Take a moment.

Stan Zimmerman: Take a moment, enjoy it. And yes, of course we don't know where anything's gonna go, but you have to enjoy the road along the way. And yes, there's going to be times and things and you're going to trip and fall and stub your toe. And you know what? It's going to heal and you're going to get better and then you're going to keep going and then there'll be something else along the way. And trust the process and enjoy the process because you can't stop it. It's just, you know, you can fight it, but then where do you get?

Sharon Johnson: Yeah. And I think just in life in general, I think that's it's really important to take the moment and appreciate it. There's always going to be ups and downs coming forward, but if you don't take those moments, then it just can suck all of the joy out of your life.

Stan Zimmerman: Yes. You know, that's what I wanted. I think what you got from the book, that it's not just stories, that it's things you could philosophies you can take into any job, any part of your life and hopefully, you know, skip through life and enjoy it. Like my mother said that my brother came out of the womb just like crying. And she said I came out like laughing with just a big smile on my face. And she said I think I got like a happy kid. And I just, I think that's just my nature and--

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah.

Stan Zimmerman: And why, why I am the way I am.

Sharon Johnson: Yeah, it took me a little bit longer to get there, but I'm-- I try to do that as much as I possibly can.

Stan Zimmerman: Well, you know what to say about trying? Don't try, just do it.

Susan Lambert Hatem: That's what Yoda says.

Stan Zimmerman: Yes. That's what I teach in my acting class. I have people, I saw this. They will be like, take this pencil from me. Okay. Okay. Now try to. You never get the pencil.

Sharon Johnson: Yeah. Yeah.

Stan Zimmerman: So words are powerful. Watch what you tell yourself. If you're saying I'm going to try to do it in your mind, you're giving yourself an out. Almost like I'm never going to really do it.

Sharon Johnson: Yeah, that's true.

Stan Zimmerman: So either just say I'm going to do it. Yeah, I know you're going to hate me.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Stan Zimmerman philosophy.

Stan Zimmerman: I should do a TED Talk. I would love to, but I couldn't write it. I'd have to get like Chet, you know, to do it for me.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah.

Stan Zimmerman: Maybe perform it. That's a lot of words. Do they just memorize it or is there like a monitor or something?

Susan Lambert Hatem: I think you can have a monitor.

Stan Zimmerman: Okay, thanks.

Sharon Johnson: I would hope so. I mean, I can't imagine somebody would go out there and not be just sort of wing it as they're standing there trying to memorize.

Susan Lambert Hatem: There's also a lot of rehearsal they might memorize. You know, it's like an acting, you can act part.

Stan Zimmerman: I know you could act the part of me, which is what I've been doing now in my suicide awareness play, acting the narrator, which is basically me. And with a very, very heavy subject. And I've been doing it all over the country. And I did it recently in Virginia with high school kids and giving. I wanted to do that with two adult actors and then two young students audition kids, put them in the play and give high school kids like their first professional job to put on the resume would be with me and other adult actors. And I just actually yesterday heard from one of the girls that was the girl that was in it. She goes, you changed my life. Like we just treated her like you're a professional actor and you're acting with us. They had never had that. You know, they maybe do play in camp or high school with other kids. But it was suddenly real and with something heavy, that they felt they could make a difference in the world.

Susan Lambert Hatem: That is amazing. I think that's really powerful. We just had a reading of my new play.

Stan Zimmerman: Okay. Fine. We'll be doing a play together, won't we?

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yes, we'll be. But, basically there were three high school students that were involved with it. Two as musicians and one as assistant director. Because I knew she was interested, and I was like, do you want to come do this? And she, like, wrote this, like, amazing, you know, sort of email afterwards to the whole team going, thank you for my first professional gig. And the thing. And it was so great. And it's. So what you're like, that's.

Stan Zimmerman: That's changed their life.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah.

Stan Zimmerman: Like, if someone had given me that opportunity.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I know you're like, yeah, come along for this ride and we'll. We'll walk you through the steps of it. So it was.

Stan Zimmerman: And the tentacles that happens by you picking that person and then what they do in the rest of the world. And it does make a difference.

Susan Lambert Hatem: It does make a difference how you treat other people. What you. Lifting up other people. As we know, it's maybe our only option at this point.

Stan Zimmerman: Theater is hard.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Theater is hard.

Stan Zimmerman: But you know what? Right now, we're the first line of resistance. And it's important for a theater artist to get out there and connect with real humans. And you see that interestingly in town halls and, you know, with Bernie and AOC going out there, having that connection in person I think is important. And I mean, they're doing a version of theater, I guess, and for us to go out there, either make people laugh or think, provoke conversation, like what I'm doing with the suicide play. Otherwise you can just, you know, you want to crawl under your bed and under the covers and hide and go, I can't make a difference. But you can.

Susan Lambert Hatem: You can. And it. And it's showing up and it's.

Stan Zimmerman: Yeah.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And it's telling stories and it's about connecting with people and realizing, like, hey, we're all in this together.

Stan Zimmerman: Yeah. We're on this planet together. And the othering of people, it's just gotta stop. I mean, we are only better by our differences in that we're what each person can bring to the table. I mean, we want all kinds of people. And I can learn from you and you.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And diversity is indeed our strength. Kevin's got nothing.

Stan Zimmerman: You can't learn from Kevin. No

Susan Lambert Hatem: No, it's true. We've gotten into some weird upside-down universe. And the only way out, I think, is together. Like, we have to recognize how important human beings are to each other. Everyone is valuable and needed and connected and I don't know, it's, it's a very scary time and it's hard to write in a very scary time.

Stan Zimmerman: I think sometimes I've actually done more writing. First of all, I turned off MSNBC, which was--

Susan Lambert Hatem: That'll do.

Stan Zimmerman: It was my choir and I was like eating dinner around it. I'm like, you know, If Lawrence O'Donnell was on, I was there and all the people. And after September I was like, no, no, I'm not going to get sucked in with that. And I'm like writing all these plays and doing all this stuff. I'm like, okay, I have time to do and see and see people and have experiences in the world, I think.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah. And I think it's important to tell all the stories. Right? And you know, we need to react to when Bea Arthur is taken off of the military website.

Stan Zimmerman: Yeah.

Susan Lambert Hatem: For her service to our country.

Stan Zimmerman: I think they have put her back on. I think there was such a groundswell. We Golden Girls people are--  

Susan Lambert Hatem: They probably didn't put back on other people that didn't get the groundswell.

Stan Zimmerman: Like one of the guys in Iwo Jima. I mean, or Jackie Robinson, mean, the list goes on and on. I just thought we were over this. Waking up and like, and being like, what is it today? Is the world still going out? I just want to wake up and like--

Susan Lambert Hatem: And have government be boring again.

Stan Zimmerman: Have coffee, for example.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Have coffee.

Stan Zimmerman: Yes. Let's just start there. Can I just have coffee without having to scroll through TikTok and go, holy.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Have my brain exploding? Yeah. So when did you feel comfortably. We're gonna wrap up, but I have a couple more questions.

Stan Zimmerman: Yes.

Susan Lambert Hatem: When did you feel comfortably out in Hollywood?

Stan Zimmerman: About two minutes ago. Well, it was way after Golden Girls. I mean, Golden Girls we were in the closet. and then a few years went by and because it was considered an old-boys network to be on a writing staff. I mean, actually when we were beginning, we would read articles about Garry Marshall and his staff of writers and it said-- I remember Garry saying something about, oh, during breaks from writing we all go and play basketball. I'm like, well, I can't play basketball so I can't be a writer like that. I put those two together. And I got to meet Garry Marshall actually. But I think we just. There was a free alternative newspaper called the LA Weekly. And they were doing a piece on Hollywood gay people. And somehow it came to us and we went to our representatives and said-- I don't even know if we asked. We just said we were going to do it. I don't know. We don't think that's a good idea. And we're like, well, we're doing it.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I mean, no, try.

Stan Zimmerman: No, don't try. Just do it. It was like, we're out in our life. I think by that point we're probably out with people at work and it's like, we need to just be out in the world and so that other people can see it's okay. but we were probably the first, I think the first writing team to be out. And, you know, then all these other magazines wanted to do stories about us because it was something unusual. There were even very few women writers and staff. So a lot of times we had to be like the women police. And I'd have to raise my hand and go, if there was a character description of this woman, and it was like, she's 28 and pretty. And I'm like, excuse me, can we give her one more characteristic? I mean, won't it help us in writing? And what is that? And they're like, why? You know, just, you know, just do the jokes and move on. I'm like, no, come on, come on, we can do it. You know?

Susan Lambert Hatem: And did you feel like you might be costing yourself something by doing that?

Stan Zimmerman: It didn't matter at that point. I mean, in the beginning, I think we had. We wanted to keep jobs and we wanted our contracts renewed, so we kept quiet. And now I think about it and I go, so they would really fire us because of that? But then, like, maybe that was part of why we didn't get asked back for Golden Girls. Did they not want to have to talk about it or just think about what they said in the room? You know, think about all the things that were in the rooms when we weren't there.  

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah.

Sharon Johnson: Do you think there were people or most people, though, knew, over time that they kind of figured out or that they were told yes, and did it.

Stan Zimmerman: But it was freeing once. And then. But then when it came out, there was a period where all they wanted to do was talk about it. And then we would say to the writers, can we just go back to the show? But they were so curious. Or like, we were at an office at Paramount and there was a big window and there would be, like, this gorgeous girl would walk by, and they were like, nothing? And I'm like, no, I mean, it's a nice outfit. I wouldn't have matched that top with the pants. And then a hot guy would walk by and we'd go to them, nothing? So. And then one time we were out of the room writing a script, and the writer's assistant said there was a group discussion between all the men. There were only men writers. If they were on a desert island and they had to, like, hook up with one of me or Jim, which one would they pick?

Susan Lambert Hatem: What?

Stan Zimmerman: Yeah, it's always on a desert island with straight guys. Like, otherwise, they couldn't do it. You throw them in a desert island, things happen. Things happen. Love Island, folks. I got the executive producer, so I thought I won. Yeah, I won. There I was like, really? They're talking about us, about that?

Susan Lambert Hatem: Well, and you know how many times that's happened for women out of the room?

Stan Zimmerman: Oh, I'm sure all the time. All the time. And. And. But I'll think about the sexist things they would say. Yeah, I mean, we. We. We've hopefully come a long way. And, you know, as we would start to do our own shows, I'd be like, can't we just have an all-women writing staff? Like. Like, I would just be my happy place. And always, I mean, as you know, in the book, I was always friends. My best friends were women. I would. And back then, we would talk on a phone for hours and dissect everything in life. And it's just, I just. For whatever reason, that was where I felt comfortable.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And it's true. You talk like. I'm also, like, curious about your, you know, friendship with Lily Tomlin and your development--

Stan Zimmerman: We love Lily. She's a goddess. The minute as a young kid, I saw her on Laugh, and I was like, who the hell is that? And these characters, I mean, they were just smart characters. And then she was from Detroit, and I was from Detroit. So then when she was coming, she had an album come out, and she was coming back to JL Hudson's Department Store to sign the album. And I was like, Mom, we are going there. I don't care if I have school or getting out of school. And she knew I loved her, and she dragged me to there. And Lily signed the record. And I got to show Lily when she came to my house. I dragged the record out and—

Sharon Johnson: Oh, how cool!  

Stan Zimmerman: That was really cool. And then one time, my mother, she fed my obsession for Lily. And thank god she did that. But Lily was very involved in the women's movement. And there was a NOW meeting, and it was downtown, and she took me and my little sister to see Lily Tomlin. She didn't tell my father where we were going because it was a NOW meeting, and, you know, it was downtown, and, you know, there were women there, and there were lesbians there, and who knows what could have happened? But I got to see Lily Tomlin perform there, and it was. It was really, really cool. I got to tell her that as well. So thank god that my mother saw this, and she was not afraid to.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Let you bloom. Let me be who--

Stan Zimmerman: Like, that was like. But for whatever reason, I loved her. Encourage that. I got to bring my mother and Lily together. My mother was living in Santa Barbara, and it was my mother's birthday. And Lily was going through town doing Signs of Intelligent Life. And she was so nice to my mother. I was like, okay, all's well in the world. This is perfect. So, and I, you know, now I never really thought, like, what my mother must have thought, like, remembering all these years of, like, way back when, and then here we are, and, like, my son is just, like, hanging with Lily Tomlin.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Hanging with Lily Tomlin.

Stan Zimmerman: Yeah, thanks to her.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I was gonna say. And then you tell another story about your performance in elementary school.

Stan Zimmerman: Oh, god. No one's asked about that.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I want you to tell that story, please.

Stan Zimmerman: I thought I would bury that in the book. And we'll end on that?

Susan Lambert Hatem: No, it’s so beautiful.

Stan Zimmerman: It is? It's embarrassing. And I never really have mentioned it to anybody except in the book, but in the book. So I guess people. You mean when I was in the first time-- I was in drag. First and only time in, I think, fifth grade talent show. I dressed in drag and did Ernestine in front of my elementary school. Like, what my parents must have thought.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Did you get laughs?

Stan Zimmerman: Of course I got laughs. That was funny. And I was. I did the whole. You know, the whole thing. I did everything. But that was pretty brave. I don't think I. If I really had thought about it, but I think at some point, we had a discussion in my family. It was like, he's doing a character. So it wasn't like I was being a woman. It was a character. So he's an actor. These are just characters. I think that's how my father got through it. I'm sure he was. He was embarrassed, probably. But the fact that his son got laughs, like, he couldn't not see and hear that. And I think that's what allowed him to.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Made it allowable.

Stan Zimmerman: Yes.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And how was that relationship with your dad?

Stan Zimmerman: Not good. And in the end, being a middle child, I was always wanting, like, my sister and him to get along. And then I just didn't like the way he treated people. And I finally. You know, you can't change people. You can walk them to the water, but doesn't mean they're going to get a drink from it. I had to step away. And he had to be who he was. He was never going to learn. And that was. You know, it's very disappointing when, whether it's a family member or a friend, they have to do their thing. I didn't understand, like, at this point of your life, like, just enjoy your kids. Like, why-- Why do you have to-- You can't mold them into whatever. They're going to just enjoy it. I mean, you've done your work. So, yeah. Unfortunately, at the end of his life, we were. We didn't talk. And that's.

Susan Lambert Hatem: That's tough.

Stan Zimmerman: It's tough. But you know what? I feel like now, if, for me, it's a very low bar to be in my life. Like, you have to accept me as an equal human being.

Susan Lambert Hatem: That's all.

Stan Zimmerman: You would think that's all. But there's, you know, 77 million that don't see me as that.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah.

Stan Zimmerman: And, if you can't meet me at that place, then I just don't have time anymore. Like, I want to be surrounded by love and people and this community that I've created. And that's where my family is.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah.

Sharon Johnson: There's enough negativity out there. Why have it in the people that you're closest to, that you're dealing with?

Stan Zimmerman: No. Just because they have the same last name or they grew up in the house that you were in.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah. No. Yeah. I'm from Georgia. I have.

Stan Zimmerman: Oh. So, you know. Yeah.

Susan Lambert Hatem: You know, and I'm very lucky. I had a very, I had two parents that were very different but equal in their respect for other people and in their understanding that, that if that feeling uncomfortable was not an attack on them. And so they could talk about feeling uncomfortable and being in situations of feeling uncomfortable and. Which meant they could talk about, you know, racism, and they could talk about sexism, and they could talk about, you know, being, you know, equal to everybody, even when they were uncomfortable and didn't understand it. You know, my mom has come a long way in a lot of her thinking, particularly around LGBTQ issues. And it's been work. Like she, you know, it's like, well, she's, you know, she just didn't understand it, but it didn't keep her from wanting to understand or denying people's existence.

Stan Zimmerman: That’s where the difference is.  

Susan Lambert Hatem: And so it now has become like she's a champion. And she's a champion for human rights and for civil rights. And she's 85 and a little old white lady from Georgia. Well, she's, she's not from Georgia, so that probably helps too.

Stan Zimmerman: It doesn't matter what age. I mean is. If you have an open heart, that that's not. That's ageless. So it. And it's great that she's a champion, but you don't have to be a champion. You just have to let everyone just be.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yes.

Stan Zimmerman: That's very, very. You think would be very simple. But for other people for. Whether they give them a leg up, if they kept somebody that they can stand on, or put down, I don't know. I never got that. And being a Libra again, it's just. I want fair and balance. I just want people to be fair about it. But I'm so sensitive about other people. And, a lot of my writing is about putting myself in other people's shoes.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah.

Stan Zimmerman: And that's very thematic in my work. And also people said there just seems to be a heart in there. So I always go to like, well, what. I have no idea what it's like or to be like you or like you or anybody here. But if I can just for a second. And that's why when people say, well, you can only write what you are, I think, no, why are we taking away a learning of possibilities? Let some straight white guy write a gay character. Maybe he'll feel what it's like to be in my shoes.

Sharon Johnson: That's what has happened since the dawn of time. People don't write about just people that are them or like them. They write about all kinds of people. They have to, to tell their story because that's what's in the world. And if you're going to create a world, you're going to have all kinds of people, and you can't tell a story without that.

Stan Zimmerman: But we also have to create more spaces where people do tell their stories because there's so many people that we have not been able to give them platforms and spaces and places to be seen. Whether it's television or movies or theater. They just, they haven't. And so. But we can do both. Everyone's always like we can walk and chew gum.

Susan Lambert Hatem: We have room enough for everyone and love enough for everyone.

Stan Zimmerman: I was writing with somebody and he was like, oh, I hope their project dies. And I'm like, you cannot talk like that in my house.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah.

Stan Zimmerman: I mean, every. Let everybody succeed. There's enough room for, even for us to tell similar stories. No one is going to tell the story from my shoes and my eyes. You know? I mean, I tell that to actors. If you have twins, it's still a different perspective.  

Sharon Johnson: Because one’s at this side of the room, the others at the other side of the room.

Stan Zimmerman: Exactly. Not even conjoining twins. Like they're still slightly different and that the difference is what I think is so beautiful in art. Your perspective.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Absolutely. And I think it's the power of being able to see from other people's perspectives that gives you an ability to write and gives you an ability as a young man to write Bea Arthur. To write for Bea Arthur. And because you're like-- Because you were sincerely approaching that. And I want to, I want to.

Stan Zimmerman: I want to understand that. So when people say, like, how would you know that? Like, oh, maybe that's how my mother and grandmother felt. Oh, okay. Maybe that helps me understand, oh, why they were fighting about that or, you know, all those different specifics. And I would never have had that if I wasn't writing for those characters.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I'm just starting my revisit. Right? Like, just started with season one. And again, like  

Stan Zimmerman: You can stop after that.  

Susan Lambert Hatem: I mean, that is the best ones. So like three particular episodes out of the 25 that are really--

Sharon Johnson: It's hard to believe there's anything better.

Susan Lambert Hatem: That first season--

Stan Zimmerman: But there was something about it unfolding that was different than others. And I have to say now, watching future episodes, it will get me into trouble. But it was very different. To me, it always felt like they were carbon copies or faded copies of jokes we had done. And there was also something-- And since talking to some writers, they got joy out of. Let's give them those old ladies dirty lines to say. I'm like, no, we never thought that. We were always like, they were gods in my eyes. So I only wanted to give them, like, pearls. You know?

Susan Lambert Hatem: There's so much world building in that first season and so much character building. And you're inventing all the, you know, St. Olaf's and all these sort of tropes for The Golden Girls that became, you know, what they're known for. It's a pretty spectacular first season. I will give you that.

Stan Zimmerman: Oh, give it to me. Thank you.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I love it. All right. Thank you so much.

Stan Zimmerman: Thank you for having me back.

Susan Lambert Hatem: This has been really fun.

Sharon Johnson: Really has. Well, we will have to figure out a way to have, like, Stan's Corner or something occasionally.

Stan Zimmerman: I love it. Baby in the corner.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Thank you.  

Stan Zimmerman: Bye.  

Susan Lambert Hatem: You know, here at 80s TV Ladies how much we love to shout out the amazing ladies of the 20th and 21st century. And we love podcasts who shout out amazing ladies of any time. So we want to tell you about the Art News podcast. Every episode, they focus on telling the stories of the women pictured in the most famous works of art through history.

Sharon Johnson: What an incredible idea for a podcast. Please check out Art Muse podcast and hear host Grace Anna, who aims to reinterpret works of art by bringing the stories of the women in those paintings to life. Who are these women and what are their stories? You can find out at artmusepodcast.com. For our audio-ography today, you can watch Golden Girls streaming online. It's currently on Hulu with a subscription and on Philo without. It's available for sale on YouTube, Apple and more.

Susan Lambert Hatem: You can order Stan's book, The Girls: From Golden to Gilmore at bookshop.org. The link is in our description. You can also find out more about Stan Zimmerman at zimmermanstan.com. And a little book that I enjoyed reading is TV Milestones Series: The Golden Girls by Kate Brown. The advertising you hear on this show covers only very little of the cost of producing the show. The very best way to support this show and not hear ads and get some cool insider info and videos is on patreon.com/80sTVLadies. Your support goes directly to supporting the show.

Sharon Johnson: We hope 80s TV Ladies brings you joy and laughter and lots of fabulous new and old shows to watch. All of which lead us forward toward being amazing ladies of the 21st century.

Amy Englehardt [Singing]: 80s TV Ladies, So sexy and so pretty. 80s TV Ladies, Steppin’ out into the city. 80s TV Ladies, often treated kind of sh-[wolf whistle]. Working hard for the money in a man’s world. 80s TV Ladies!

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