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Xena's Legacy: Exploring the Fierce Women of 90s TV with RJ Stewart

Melissa Roth: Weirding Way Media.

Amy Englehardt [Singing]: 80s TV Ladies, So sexy and so pretty. 80s TV Ladies, Steppin’ out into the city. 80s TV Ladies, often treated kind of sh-[wolf whistle]. Working hard for the money in a man’s world. 80s TV Ladies!

Susan Lambert Hatem: Hey, just a little note on our audio for this episode. RJ was in person for most of it, but we actually did a little extra Zoom interview after our in-person interview. So if you hear some changes in the audio, please forgive us because they're two different interviews. Thanks.  

Melissa Roth: Welcome to 80s TV Ladies, where anyone with a heart and a love of the ladies of 80s television can be an 80s TV Lady. Wear it loud and proud, gentlemen, Welcome to season four with your award-winning hosts, Sharon Johnson and Susan Lambert Hatem.  

Susan Lambert Hatem: Hello, I'm Susan.

Sharon Johnson: And I'm Sharon. Sometimes, Susan, you gotta step outside your comfort zone. You gotta say, sure, we might be 80s TV Ladies, but we can also look at 90s TV Ladies. And there may be no more fierce 90s TV Lady than the heroic villain turned goddess Xena, Warrior Princess.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Now, back in the day, I knew about Xena and I caught some episodes when it aired, but just a few. How about you, Sharon?

Sharon Johnson: Well, I knew about it, but I did not watch the show.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Oh yeah, I was just starting film career and then starting at Disney and I didn't have a time to watch a lot of TV. I sort of chose one night of TV and it was the night of Buffy and that was it. But I knew the show had an amazing influence on a younger generation and I always admired the idea of the kick ass and campy nature of Xena and Gabrielle.

Sharon Johnson: Xena, Warrior Princess aired in first -un syndication from September 4, 1995 to June 18, 2001. It was a spinoff of the popular syndicated series Hercules, the Legendary Journeys, but ultimately became more popular than its predecessor.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Filmed in New Zealand, the show follows the adventures of Xena, played by Lucy Lawless, a villain now trying to redeem herself with good works. She is joined in her adventures bya companion. Gabrielle, played by Rene O’Connor, who grows from naive farm girl into kick butt Warrior over the six seasons. And their relationship grows from annoyance to best friend and soulmate with some definite romantic subtext.

Sharon Johnson: The show was super popular. Xena became the top-rated syndicated drama in its second season and remained in the top five for its whole run. It spawned TV movies, comics, a video game, role-playing games and books.

Susan Lambert Hatem: But it was really in second-run syndication in the 2000s when the show garnered its cult following. And I think that was also led by the rise of the Internet, various forums, chat rooms, and fan fiction. I think we need an extra brain for this interview, so we're gonna bring on a brand-new 90s TV Baby, Ms. Anna Schekel. I have known Anna since she was but a wee babe. She is the daughter of dear friends Bonita and Nick, and she is a big Xena fan and may in fact be a Xena expert.

Sharon Johnson: Anna is a visual artist who graduated from Drew University with a double major in studio art and Chinese studies and a minor in art history.

Susan Lambert Hatem: She is an incredible, versatile artist who lives in Pasadena. She makes art, she plays D&D with me, and she works as a shop instructor at Art Center College of Design, teaching students how to properly use tools and techniques necessary to create their projects.

Sharon Johnson: Welcome to 80s TV Ladies, Anna.

Anna Schekel: Thank you so much.

Sharon Johnson: Before we bring on Mr. RJ Stewart, let's talk about your relationship with Xena, Warrior Princess.

Anna Schekel: Yeah, Xena, Warrior Princess is a show that I watched in the eighth grade because I recently discovered I was gay and secretly tried to watch every single gay thing I could get my hands on. And I was a little nervous to watch Xena because it was so-- Everybody talked about it. And then the second I saw the first episode, I think she did, like, three backflips and kicked a guy and then was, like, spinning on top of a guy's head. I was like, this is the greatest show. This is the most incredible thing I've seen in my entire life. And then proceeded to secretly watch it in my room in its entirety.

Sharon Johnson: How did you first hear about it? were there ads or were you watching Hercules or do you remember how you first heard about it?

Anna Schekel: I just knew of it in general culture. I feel like there are. There's, like, an episode of Will & Grace where they make a Xena joke. There's like, all these different little shows where they refer to it in the context of lesbianism. And I was like, oh, that is the show. And, yeah, and then I watched it, and it was awesome.

Susan Lambert Hatem: So how many times have you, watched that? You've watched every episode?

Anna Schekel: I've watched every episode probably six to ten times all the way through.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Okay, so you know this show very, very well.

Anna Schekel: I know this show very, very well. Well, I know this show very, very well for a person who is not writing down the plot of every episode.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And who's not like a TV person.

Sharon Johnson: So do you have any favorite episodes? Ones that particularly speak to you or find particularly entertaining or--

Anna Schekel: Wow. There were a lot. I think it depends on. I feel like my friends and family have told me that I should compile the many playlists that these would trickle down into. But I think it depends on what you're looking for. There's some really fun, campy episodes. There's some really serious episodes. I think one of my favorite episodes is. I don't remember the name of it, but basically you find out that Xena. That all of the soldiers that were supposed to. All of the Spartan soldiers that were supposed to fight in the pass of Thermopylae actually died. And so Xena has to fight off the entire army by herself, which in itself is, like, kind of campy and weird and is a testament to how powerful Xena is. But then there's also this moment where-- Spoiler, if you haven't seen the show that came out in 1995, there's a-- There's a scare that Gabrielle is gonna die. And so then there's a lot of heartfelt stuff there where Gabrielle's like, go on without me. And she's like, why would I do that? And so all of that was, yeah, very sweet and very poignant.

Sharon Johnson: Are there any particular guest performers on the show that you like, or recurring characters that you like really well?

Anna Schekel: Yeah, I feel like. Well, first of all, I think anyone who just identifies as a general nerd will immediately recognize Karl Urban, who is one of the few actors that they cast twice as, like, two important people and kind of just hope you won't know. He plays Cupid and then later Julius Caesar and he has wildly different haircuts. And they don't think anyone's going to notice. So that's really fun. I think probably a basic fan favorite is everybody loves Bruce Campbell playing Autolycus and that's. That's really enjoyable. Yeah, yeah, but it's really funny. I feel like. I don't know if it's a, it's an industry thing or if it's a New Zealand thing, but if you watch Xena, any other show based in or around New Zealand, you will recognize all of those actors. I feel like I watched another Sam Raimi fantasy show back in high school, and I was like, I know all of those people. I've seen all of those people before. It's awesome. I love that Lucy Lawless is from New Zealand and puts on an American accent in a show that's based in Greece. That's so good.

Susan Lambert Hatem: All right, well, are you ready to meet RJ Stewart?

Anna Schekel: Yeah, I'm stoked. Let's do it.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Okay. RJ Stewart started in 80s television as story editor and writer on one of our favorite 80s TV Ladies show, Remington Steele.

Sharon Johnson: RJ wrote season one, episode 13, A Good Night’s Steele. And season one, episode 16, Steele Crazy After All These Years.

Susan Lambert Hatem: RJ worked on almost 200 episodes of television, creating several shows including Man of the Year with James Gardner. He has a very cool novel which came out in 2024, the post-apocalyptic novel Crazy Hawk. And it was very good, Sharon.

Sharon Johnson: Oh, it's fantastic. It's really, really fantastic. The world-building he does in creating this post-apocalyptic environment. Uh, it's really great. And lots of great female characters in it, too, including the lead.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yes. And a horse that I liked.

Sharon Johnson: Yes. Danny.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Danny. So fiction is not as appealing as nonfiction to me anymore. But you said it was great. You read it fast. Like we knew we were doing this interview and like the next day you're like, oh yeah, it was great. I was like, what?

Sharon Johnson: I couldn't put it down. I had to find out what happened.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And so I was like, okay, I gotta get it. And I got it and I started reading the book. But then I walk and like to listen to stuff. So I listened to the audiobook and it's very-- The actress that reads it is very, very good. So I highly recommend.

Sharon Johnson: And yes, in other words, we are recommending whether you want to get the audiobook, whether you want to read it, it's going to be a great time. It's a great story.

Susan Lambert Hatem: It's a fun read. I'm now on the hopeful post-apocalyptic novels. It's hard to find them, I think, that are a little bit smart.

Sharon Johnson: Yeah, and this one's on the hopeful side, I think.

Susan Lambert Hatem: It ends on the hopeful side. It's pretty brutal, but it's. Yeah. All right. Anyway, let's get him out here.

Sharon Johnson: All right.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Or in here.

Sharon Johnson: We are so excited to have him on the show to talk about our first 90s TV Lady show as well as his career in television and writing. Welcome to 80s TV Ladies, Mr. RJ Stewart.

RJ Stewart: Thank you very much. Thank you for having me.

Susan Lambert Hatem: We are so excited to finally get this one done. We've had to reschedule a couple of times and you came up from the San Diego area. So thank you very much. And it's always fun to have people in person, so thanks.

RJ Stewart: Yes, I agree. That's the way to do it.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I would just like to start with kind of what made you want to be a writer? Because clearly that path--

RJ Stewart: My father was a sergeant in the Air Force, Sergeant Kenneth H. Stewart. And he would go on tours of duty and go away for a while. And he used to send me letters. And in the letters it'd be a letter from my mother. This is back in the day, you know, we actually wrote letters. And they would always, not always, but frequently be a story he would write about my favorite characters. It would be-- I like Mickey Mouse in that world and I like the Peanuts stories. So he would write one or the other and then eventually he started, you know, cross-- You know, they would--  

Susan Lambert Hatem: Fan fiction, right?

RJ Stewart: Exactly. And then it would be, you know, and then Snoopy runs in and Goofy's chasing him, you know. So that was when I was, you know, like a little boy, like 6, 7, 8 years old, you know. And so I-- The idea of storytelling, the idea that you could make up your own story, you know, is something that was in my head pretty early on. And then when I was in junior high, they'd call it today, we were stationed in Greece. You know, remember my dad's in the Air Force.

Susan Lambert Hatem: So you're a traveling.

RJ Stewart: Yeah. So we're on the Isle of Crete and our teacher was named Mr. Sayuda. And he said, I'll give you extra credit if you write a short story. So I wrote a short story every week for the rest of the year. And after a while he said, no, I'm not giving extra credit for. No, just tell me what you think. And he I know he didn't read it. And I ran into one of those stories recently going through it and you know what they read like a 14-year-old read them, wrote it. And so there's no gems there. But anyway that was the beginning of my writing. Then in college I thought of myself as an actor. But I wrote a play that got produced and it was about Native Americans. Uh, it's called Even the Eagle Dies. ‘Cause I had real good friends in the Native American community and so I dramatized my relationship with them. But when we moved to Hollywood, my wife and I, I was going to be an actor. That was my idea to be an actor. And I started collaborating with people though, you know, not becoming a movie star or a TV star right away I thought. And I had friends who were writing. I collaborated with a few of them on different screenplays and eventually started writing on my own. And the first screenplay I wrote on my own got me the job on Remington Steele.

Susan Lambert Hatem: What was that screenplay?

RJ Stewart: It's called Good Company. And it was the classic write what you know script. ‘Cause I was working. The job I had was a teamster. I was a delivery guy around Los Angeles. Clint Eastwood sat in my car one time. ‘Cause sometimes if it was just artwork or something, they send you in a little Honda. And Clint Eastwood sat in my car. And-- So the screenplay was about my life doing that. Delivering, you know, a wannabe writer delivering stuff in Los Angeles. That cliche of write what you know is a little tricky because. But I always say, remember, your imagination is something you know too. So it doesn't really have to be about your everyday life. ‘Cause that would be a bunch of boring things. But, you know, like, I could just as well have written about a guy who delivers to space stations or planets. You know what I'm saying? But, you know, but bring the idea of a driver to it. That kind of stuff. So they just loved it. Uh, Glenn Caron, Lise Lattoff, Michael Gleason. These were the people that were doing the eighties show.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yes. Remington Steele. We have covered it on our. It was in our first season. We talked about Remington Steele.

RJ Stewart: Okay. Well, we're going to get to women characters I write. And remember the premise of Remington Steele. Laura Holt. Do you know Remington Steele? Child. The Remington Steele-- Well, Laura Holt has a detective agency. But she's having a hard time getting work. Because of the prejudice at the time against hiring a female detective. Right. Which probably was real. I mean, I don't know if it'd be real today, but it was probably was real. And so she decides to get a front for the agency who's this hollow suit name. We don't know what his name is. She gives him the name Remington Steele. Isn't that right?

Susan Lambert Hatem: Well, she makes up the name Remington Steele. And there's no person there.

RJ Stewart: Yeah, yeah.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Until some guy shows up saying they're Remington Steele. And then that's the pilot. Right? It’s like who is this guy?

RJ Stewart: Exactly. And-- So. So right from the beginning, I was right. You know. And I love the. I thought it was a great concept. And Stephanie was a. Stephanie Zimbalist is a wonderful actress and a very kind, loving person. And Pierce was so charming. So charming. You know, this is before the show aired. Meeting these people like, oh, my God. And he used to love to come flirt with my wife. They're both Irish, and so there was a lot of that. A lot of stuff going on there because my wife would come visit me and stuff. And so they showed me the pilot. Okay. You know, they hired me and then brought me in as a story editor and showed me the pilot. One of my-- They say, you know, tell us the truth. What do you really think? Just be totally honest. You already got the job, you know, And I said, well, it's great, because I was very impressed, but, you know, you got to write more for that guy who's playing Remington. Well, it's the world. Wait a minute. That wasn't me being a genius or anything. That's what the whole world thought a couple of weeks later, you know, when it aired. You know, see what I'm saying? And they were saying that. Yeah, because they were dealing with that issue, you know, because the studio was already giving them notes. Pierce is so cool. Gotta write more for him.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Well, he's the mystery, you know, like. And we're just. I think it was so hard for female driven shows that were popping up in the 80s, particularly a lot like this, to stay focused on the woman. It was just hard.

Sharon Johnson: But his name. The character. His character name was in the title of the show. So I could. You know, there's all these. I could see there, all these pressures going into that.

Susan Lambert Hatem: But it was so perfect, because that's what the show is about, right? It's such a met-- The show itself is a metaphor for what she's done, which is no one would hire me. I made up a guy, and everyone will hire me now. And I just have to keep the guy, the pretend guy, somewhere out there in front of me. And then when the real guy shows up, he takes over everything.

RJ Stewart: That, of course, played out in reality. She came into my office one day and said, RJ, I feel like I'm the pack mule for the plot. M. Why does Pierce get all the fun stuff? And I said, because people are cruel and mean. You know, I was so low on the totem pole. Like, this was above my paygrade. I think she was hoping to enlist an ally, you know. And I was. I was totally an ally of hers. But Pierce would come down and charm my pants off, too. So, that was a complicated situation. You know who Pierce Brosnan is?

Anna Schekel: I do. I've seen Mama Mia.

RJ Stewart: I have not seen Mob Land.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Uh, I haven't. I haven't.

RJ Stewart: Our son loves it. He thinks it's great.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Well, so you're starting on this show that does kind of have an amazing trajectory. It becomes pretty known pretty quickly. And it's got this hot premise and a hot young cast and you get a lot of great people. Like in your episode. One of the episodes you wrote is Moonlighting. It's Elise Beasley and Annie Potts.

RJ Stewart: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Did you get to. That was like the flashback one, I think.  

RJ Stewart: Flashback?  

Susan Lambert Hatem: Steel Crazy After All These Years.

RJ Stewart: You know, we're gonna run into this a lot. I'm not sure I remember which one they were.

Susan Lambert Hatem: We ask a lot of our guests.

RJ Stewart: But I remember Annie. Annie was cool.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And then there was also a young Sharon Stone, I think, in that episode.

RJ Stewart: Really?

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah.

RJ Stewart: I had no idea.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I know. Again, it's very early on. But that was the fun thing about Remington is a lot of people ended up on that show. That and Moonlighting had a lot of guests that you were like, oh, that person. That person, that person.

RJ Stewart: Yeah, yeah. I went to the Xena convention recently to sell books. And there was a room with a bunch of people sitting around. You know, I think they had bought a special access to us. And I went in and just. Gentlemen, they asked me questions about episodes and I think they thought I was being evasive or something because my answer constantly was, I don't remember that. And some of the. One girl was obsessed about stage direction. She said, why did this character move over there then?

Anna Schekel: Oh my.

RJ Stewart: And I said, not only do I not remember the stage direction, I don't remember the scene, I don't remember the episode.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah, we won't hold you accountable to long term stuff.

Sharon Johnson: Yeah, there's-- We viewers sometimes forget.

RJ Stewart: And by the way, they got upset with me. Uh, that's not an honest answer, I guess.

Sharon Johnson: Well, we viewers can because we have a tendency to watch and rewatch and rewatch shows that we really love and pick up on all sorts of things and think that maybe sometimes there's a reason for something that just wasn't what they were perceiving it to be. And it's not-- But obviously that's not always the case with writers. You probably don't go back and rewatch a lot of the things you've written.

RJ Stewart: I met Kirk Douglas once and you know, in 50s, 60s, he was the guy. And there was a movie I love Lonely Are the Brave. And you know, he's funny. We're at a party with my wife and I and Kirk. I'm in the kitchen, you know, I wonder if we're gonna meet Kirk Douglas. You know, he walks into the. It was Michael Douglas's house. And he walks into the kitchen and says, I hear you're a Willie Mays fan. And it was like my wife was working on him because she was saying, he's a big fan of yours and he loves you and Willie Mays were the-- And so he said, I was at Willie Mays’ first game. So we sat down and chatted. And he said, so I hear you're a fan. He was kind of milking it a little bit. And I said, you know, yeah, I can name your characters. Midge Kelly and John W. Burns and Paris Pitman. And he said, who’s Paris Pitman? And it was-- There Was a Crooked Man, which is kind of an obscure Kirk movie. And then there was a famous scene in Lonely Are the Brave where he's sort of waiting for the abusive cop to come beat him up. And I said, that was. It was George Kennedy. And you were just perfect at that. And he was saying, which scene was that? Was that when they shoot him? You know, so, you know, he doesn't watch even though that's. He said that's his favorite movie. Spielberg has said that's one of his favorite movies. But, you know, he doesn't know it like I knew it, you know.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's the, uh. You know, and that's the fandom in television can get pretty strong. And it was one of the things that made Xena sort of become the cult status it was.

RJ Stewart: Oh, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Before we get to Xena, I want to go back to the book for a second because I want to talk about what that writer instinct for making stories made you want to write a book.

RJ Stewart: Okay. That's a great one. I, you know, you hear people talk about, you know, I don't like retirement. You know, now that I'm retired, I don't like it. You know, not me. I love retirement. I got horses. I got horses and I got. I've started shooting black powder guns as if you read the, you know. I bought a ranch in San Diego County. I just started this new part of my life. And I'd say for 10 years I was just a horseman and a trail rider and just love this horse, Danny. Danny. You know, I dedicate the book to Danny. It's a real-life horse, you know, and he died in 2021. And I guess the simple. If I was going to fail, I'd say. And that's when I decided to write the book. But I had decided that I had. I had this whole new world of experiences I never wrote about. And I'm a writer, you know. So I started thinking of a novel, and unfortunately, our daughter was diagnosed with stage four cancer in the midst of that. So I didn't, you know, I had, like, a zero draft, and then we were just very much—

Susan Lambert Hatem: That's horrible.  

RJ Stewart: And she passed in 2018. And it was really Covid. I mean. I mean, I know everybody. You hear this a lot. You know, it's really Covid. That said, hey, you know that book that I started before Laurie got ill? I wonder if that still works for me. I went back and looked at it and had to throw some stuff out, but I said, this might work. And then I finished it in 2023, maybe? No, I think 2022. But, boy, the learning about self-publishing was. I thought, you know, I had started to hear that self-publishing was a real thing. It wasn't like the guy pulling up at the book fair with the books in his trunk. No, there was a whole world of self-publishing, you know. And I thought, why don't I do that? But it was hard. There was a steep, steep learning curve.

Susan Lambert Hatem: There was a steep learning curve. We're all now marketers, and like you, starting a podcast is a whole learning curve.

RJ Stewart: Yeah. There was a moment when I. When I. When the book was released, and I realized I have no idea about marketing. Should have probably did a little research about marketing before I released the book, but, but I finally did and sold some books. And you know, it's been interesting. The original thing was to capture my life, the valley I live in, in that writing world. But the closer was Danny passing and just sort of death because of our daughter dying. And just sort of death, you know, was sort of a subject.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Uh, yeah. And so Danny is a horse, is a character in the book and is sort of the hero horse of the hero lady. And so your horse also had one eye or was blind.

RJ Stewart: Yes, yes, yes. Oh, you heard that from.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I think I did read it. I do a little research sometimes.

RJ Stewart: I did fictionalize a little bit, because I do believe it helps you, your imagination a little bit if you don't-- If you fix a little bit. And my horse was Palomino. And Danny. And here I have him as a buckskin. In 2012, 2013, my farrier comes in and says, you seen his eye? You know, he's out-- Your farrier does shoes and stuff, horseshoes. And-- What do you mean? He says something wrong with it, and I come out, it's like, bulging out like this. And it turned out to be a disease. I'm not going to remember the name of it. And he lost his vision in that. But he was always. He was better. Everybody was jealous of that horse. He was just a great horse. I got more credit for being a good horseman because of that horse than I deserved, because he was just amazing. It's true that you need to have a good horse. You don't know what the horse is going to do. You need to have a good horse between your legs. And once you have a good horse, I would say horseback riding is the most wonderful hobby. You can, trail riding. I do trail riding. I wasn't doing dressage or jumping or anything.

Susan Lambert Hatem: That's so cool.

RJ Stewart: And so, yeah, so that's what this book was meant, you know, right on the cover. By the way, another terrific person, this is a woman named Lydia Pucchetti, who designed the cover. Yeah, she just, uh. I thought she did a great job.

Sharon Johnson: Where did, did you get the idea for this book? I mean, it's not-- I don't know that it's-- I don't read a lot of this subject. I don't know if it's a big genre or something, but I think--  

RJ Stewart: When I was in college, I read a book called Canticle for Leibowitz. And in that book, it's post-apocalyptic. And the post-apocalyptic is a nuclear bomb. I mean, nuclear war that had wiped out everything. And the first character you meet is a monk living out in the desert. And all of civilization's gone, you know, so it's really not very much like this book at all. But the one thing that I liked about it, he was fascinated, trying to figure out what the world was like before the Holocaust. Right? The nuclear Holocaust. And the. So I, you know, playing with that idea, I said, you know, well, rather than have it a thousand years in the future and everything we wiped out, what if there's all kinds of tantalizing clues around, you know, can you see what she does? You know, she's trying to figure out what was the cloud? You know, what was the cloud in the sky and stuff? And, you know, and then, of course, choosing the main character to be a woman kind of fit everything I do. And then I just started building it around my valley and stuff like that. So it was. The charming thing about the post-apocalyptic world for me is you can do two things at one time. You can create a new world, you can have fun with that and hopefully the reader does too. And then secondly, you can comment on our world, you see, because they're discovering what our world was.

Sharon Johnson: I was fascinated by the world you came up with and how you incorporated and pulled in things now and maybe how things might evolve after the major event.

RJ Stewart: That has a lot to do with the horses because I was thinking at different times when I was just so into doing eight-hour horseback rides and stuff. What if we had to ride to get supplies and stuff? What if we, you know, if the only way to get up to LA was a horseback ride? Huh, riding. And so that. And then when I started thinking about this like saying, hmm, you know, what if a lot of the world goes away? I was determined. That was one of my pet peeves in some post-apocalyptic things. Even in the near future, so much has disappeared. There'd be some things that maintained, you know, people would remember how to build stuff. You know what I'm saying? It's like how do you think we got here to begin with? So I wanted. There'd be slivers of the technology that's still around. Like Joob is a photographer and of course the Bees are dedicated into getting to reviving the technology and you know, the worst possible.

Susan Lambert Hatem: The worst parts of it.

RJ Stewart: The worst parts of it. And then the Trogs hated technology and so it was the, the worst, you know. So anyway that's part of it. I don't know if I answered that question.

Sharon Johnson: No, absolutely. I mean I found that to be just really fascinating because it made sense to me that these factions would break off and would go in the directions that they went. There wasn't anything about it that felt false, if you will.

RJ Stewart: Oh great.

Sharon Johnson: In terms of where we are now and where things could devolve, if you will. So I was just fascinated by all of that and that was just amazing.

RJ Stewart: Well, thank you, thank you. That's great to hear.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Future tribalism is an interesting idea.

RJ Stewart: Yeah, tribalism gone crazy, gone wild.  

Susan Lambert Hatem: All right, but back to the 80s.

Sharon Johnson: Okay. It's time for a break. But we'll be right back with more RJ and Anna and Xena.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And we're back. Let's go. So you are on Remington Steele. And then do you leave to do movies or do you leave to--

RJ Stewart: I left to work with Glenn Caron. He eventually went on to do Moonlighting. But I, in my wisdom, I went on to do other things.

Susan Lambert Hatem: You're like, ah, Moonlighting.

RJ Stewart: Yeah. Yeah. No, no, that'll never work. He called me, I worked. He had two pilots and they used to, in those days, used to do backup scripts for pilots. And I was his backup script writer for each of these pilots. And they would write them. And so they didn't go. And so I thought, well, he's a brilliant writer because Glenn Caron is an amazing writer, thinking, maybe he doesn't have to get the series on. I'm going to go take my chances. So I started writing, and then he calls me and says, or maybe I called him. And he says I think I got it this time. Bruce Willis, Cybill Shepherd. You know, it's like, oh, God. But I heard that he, he. He was kind of this way with everything. He had to write at all.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah.

RJ Stewart: So I don't think I would have been that happy on that show. Although, it would have been a great credit. But he needed to write all of it.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And so when were you. When was it like, oh, this guy writes great women. When did that start to happen? Because it feels like that was something you started being brought in for.

RJ Stewart: Yeah, you know, I just competed hard for those opportunities. And I don't remember anybody was saying he's the one, because he wrote there was that thing of wanting to get a woman to write a woman. So I had that a little bit of a hurdle there. But I was just attracted to those kind of things and fought for them. And, certainly, when my agent sent me the video of Lucy on Hercules playing the villain, I said, you know, is she a martial artist or something? She was so believable, so convincing. And she wasn't. She's an actress who learned martial arts. So that was something I really wanted bad.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Uh, so you went after--

RJ Stewart: Well, they were offering it to me, so, I mean. And he was surprised. He was thinking I was. You know, he thought you know, you know, gals running around in leather and stuff. You know, at that point, I don't even know if I'd heard about Gabrielle yet as an idea. And he thought maybe it would be too cheesy for me, but I. I'm going to pat myself on the back. I immediately saw that as a cool project. So.

Susan Lambert Hatem: That's great. So you were brought in to be. To try to figure out how the pilot and show would work for--  

RJ Stewart: Right, right, right. Uh, there was an outline already for the pilot. And I worked off that outline. And it was one of these things where it was a mutual agreement that I would write the script, they'd pay me for the script, and if it didn't work, we'd go our own ways. And I felt that way too, because if they're not digging on my thing, I don't want to do it. And they didn't want to get saddled with somebody who couldn't write that. And I was out shopping. And this was before cell phones, but I think this was car phone days. You know, we had car phones. And I called home and my wife said, Rob Tapper called. And I said, yeah. He said he's very pleased because he'd read the script. And I said, okay, I know what I'm doing for a while. Because they already had an order of 22 on the air. So I was head writer of a show with 22 on the air. Like, whoa. And I love the idea. I mean, of course, there are bumps and bruises along the way. I mean, it doesn't immediately. It was the first sweeps, the November sweeps. It debuted in September? I'm asking you because I think you know. In September of 1995. And we were all kind of insecure and conflicted, you know, and then November sweeps, we just. We outperformed Hercules and, you know, and just. We were the. You know, we truly were the number one syndicated show. The publicist once told me that you always say you're the number one show.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Everybody says that.

RJ Stewart: But anyway, that was, uh. And so that was, ah, that changed my life, you know, that really did change my life. And I loved it, you know, and it gave me enough dough so I could be a retired guy. Yeah, be a horseman.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I was just going to say. So you're making the show. Where did you guys shoot? Did you shoot in New Zealand?

RJ Stewart: Yes.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Anna knows that. I should ask Anna. In fact, maybe we should have Anna ask some questions.

Anna Schekel: Oh, wow.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Okay.

Anna Schekel: I don't have that many prepared, but I guess right off the bat, how does it feel to have written a cult classic? A lot of shows just kind of fade off into the ether.

RJ Stewart: Yeah, there's. I don't. I have no memory of doing this interview, but there's something on YouTube of me saying, like, just two years after the show, me saying, you know, at first I thought it was gonna be a cult classic, and then it faded. I don't know what I was thinking. Two years later that I would know anything. Uh, but now I notice a lot of talk on it. Well, here we are. What, 20? How many years has been? 20? Well, since the debut, it's been 29, 30 years.

Sharon Johnson: 30 years. It was 95.

RJ Stewart: 30 and 25 since I went off the air. And that was like a couple of classes. I went to that Xena convention, and it was just so great to see. So many people came up to me and thanked me for it. And I'm thinking, gee, this is great. Why didn't I come more often? Steve was so kind to me. Steve Sears, you guys know him. And he had paid for one of the tables and he just let me sit at the table and sell it. Didn't charge me anything and sell my book. And I sold all my books that I had. So it was fun and signed them and met so many people who were so passionate about the show. It was really lovely. I love it. Well, you know, to say I should have gone to more, you know, I wouldn't have had that experience. You know, it wouldn't have been such a wonderful experience if I was there all the time, you know. You know Steve's like, you know, he's. That's his society, you know, it's his world. So he thrives there. But for me it was-- I'm not saying I was surprised. I didn't. I didn't expect people to ignore me or anything, but people came up. Younger people, younger people probably younger than you would come up and say, your writing has meant so much to me and I want you to know, like, really pointed. I want you to know how much we appreciate you. I said, oh, that was worth the drive up.  

Sharon Johnson: That's awesome.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah, no writer likes to hear that.

Anna Schekel: I did not know that Xena conventions were still going. I feel like the last time I looked it up when I wanted to go in high school, they had been canceled.

RJ Stewart: Creation, I guess, does that because they called me for that and said, it's the last one. You want to come to this one? And we actually, there was a good reason. We were going on a trip. And so I said, sorry, I can't. That's too bad. So I said, gee, I missed the last thing. Probably would have been fun next year. Hello. Uh, did you want to come to this one? I said, you know, I missed the last one. So you might have got into some of that marketing gimmick.  

Anna Schekel: That's really cool. You wrote the majority of the early episodes, including the pilot. And then I did read an interview that you had on whoosh.com, my favorite Xena fan site. And you also wrote, you wrote a lot of the pivotal episodes, like a lot of the ones that really kick off mostly for Gabrielle, but a lot of the big moments that kind of steer them in their next arc of their story. And I guess my question is were you kind of like the ringer? Did they call you in when they were like, okay, a big change is gonna happen in the series. We want you to be the one to write it all?

RJ Stewart: Well, I used to wanna write ‘em all. I did wanna write ‘em all. And Rob would laugh and say, well, you can't. You know, we got his writing staff and stuff. And he was right. Because I'm not David Kelly or Glenn Caron, who. There are people that have to write it all and they can. But if I had to write every episode, they would have broke me. So Steve really came through in that first season. I mean, the whole time he was there, he came through. But he really saved us that first season by writing some scripts that didn't need a lot of work. Because from my point of view, when a script comes in, and it doesn't work, that means no weekend, I'm here it all night. But as far as the ones that were juicy, ah, and I wanted them, I had, I wasn't all-powerful, but I had enough power there as head writer, I could pick the ones that looked good. And, of course, a couple of them were my concepts, like the Callisto series. And that one I felt really strongly about because I felt that the whole. Not charm, maybe it's the wrong word, but the whole hook of the series was this was, I believe, the only time in, in history that in television history where a villain, an out, balls to the wall villain, this isn't just like a charismatic bad girl. No, this was a real bad woman had got her own series. Right? And it just felt like somewhere along the line we have to pay that off, both conceptually and fun, but also morality wise. I mean she got away with being a war criminal really. And so I came up with the idea of what if there's a person out there whose life was ruined by one of her raids and that person has evolved into a horrible person. And what triggered it, what led her to that was what Xena did to her family. And then we cast Hudson Lake and everything worked.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And so how often were you in New Zealand? Did you go a lot?

RJ Stewart: I went every year for a couple weeks. The last year, I was there for about six weeks.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And I'm sure Xena people know this. Where on the islands did you film?

RJ Stewart: Yeah, both the China episodes, down for the China episodes, we went to the south island to get some of the great thing. I mean, I'm sure they did it more than that, but that's one time I went with them over there to the south island, but mostly in the north island and Auckland area.

Susan Lambert Hatem: It's such a beautiful country. I got to go once.

RJ Stewart: It really is. It really is.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Beautiful All right, Anna, what else you got?

Anna Schekel: Well, my other question was kind of answered already, which was just kind of generally, I am a fan, but not in the industry, so to speak. So I was wondering how much power you had as a writer. Like, are you constantly communicating? Is there a big overarching story, or how much are you allowed to say, this is what I want to happen to these characters?

RJ Stewart: Yeah. Rob and I would sit down at the beginning of every season, try to work out the arc for the whole season. And-- You know, I had actually kind of a. Just threw out what about Rosemary’s Baby, one time, and that became that whole thing. And, you know, and he had some pet things he wanted to do. He wanted to do that, those China episodes. He was, like, passionate about that. And I wanted to write them because they were cool. And-- So it varied, but it was Rob and I working it up together. And he was definitely. If I don't think he ever told me I couldn't do something I wanted to do, maybe practicality wise, he said that wasn't practical. But, you know, we did that you know, where she would screw up the myths.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah. I was going to say how much-- What were your rules for the mythology? Because you got to do a lot of your own ideas.

RJ Stewart: Steve and I actually thought there was some. This is a case where it was an argument with Rob, but I give it to him. He was 100% right. Is that Steve and I, he wanted to do Julius Caesar. Right. And we were saying, well, we're in the Greek world. Shouldn't it be Alexander or something? We could pick out a. You know, and he said, no, it's gonna be Julius Caesar. Kind of get a lot of tension there. And we surrendered. And it turns out, like, who would care? You know, we were doing the Middle Ages later on, you know, like, nobody would care. Nobody possibly care.  

Susan Lambert Hatem: , I was gonna say. And did that evolve? Did you go, oh, we can kind of do whatever we want? Or did you--

RJ Stewart: Yeah, I think I was more considerate. I wanted to do the, you know, a version of the Greek myths. I didn't want to be slavishly accurate to the Greek myths, but we never even tried that. But, you know, and one of the things I loved writing. I love that she's quoting-- She's talking about Oedipus, Gabrielle, in the first episode, in the pilot. And you know, that's where I would be like, we're gonna. We're gonna. We're living-- We're gonna do a world where the Greek myths are really happening, and we're gonna intercede, you know, penetrate their world every once in a while. But as it turned out, we did everything. We did all the myths.

Susan Lambert Hatem: All the myths.

RJ Stewart: And that was the right thing to do in the end. It was a lot of fun doing it that way.

Susan Lambert Hatem: All right, did you have any rules for. Or did you go, we can't do this?

RJ Stewart: Liz and Rob used to say, no magic. And I go, I don't know what they're talking about. I never understood what the hell. Seems like a lot of what we did was magic. But, no, not really. Very few rules.

Susan Lambert Hatem: All right, let's talk about.

RJ Stewart: Oh, hero protection. That was a big thing for us. We were conscious of the. We had a female lead. We wanted to be careful that she had to be just a little bit better than the men in the thing. Although I was the voice of, She's gotta have her kryptonite. And the kryptonite became Callisto. And so somebody that could compete with her and endanger her if she's really just. You just know all the time. I mean, actually, I like Jason Statham movies. I'm a kid at heart, so I like excess movies, but sometimes he's just too good. So it helps if they're in jeopardy sometime. Go ahead.

Susan Lambert Hatem: So Gabrielle and her journey. Did you know exactly where you were going every season or?

RJ Stewart: You know, we started. Keep in mind that there are two kinds of. Well, there's more than two, but there's, I think, in a very broad way, classifying movies about women empowerment. There's two kinds of stories you can tell or are frequently told. There is the woman who is not empowered and then becomes empowered, and then there's the woman who's already empowered and how she handles the thing. Well, we had both right there. It was so rich. Gabrielle's story obviously became a thing about her finding herself and her becoming empowered and becoming a formidable person on her own. And, the-- And Manzino, of course, was empowered. If anything, she had to de-empower a little bit, unempower because of-- You know, she had an issue. That fortuitous thing that happened that Rob sold the show to Tribune based on the villain in the other thing, that gave it such a rich quality. Such a rich quality. So Sam Raimi wasn't involved with it much. It really just sat in a few meetings. But he did say. I remember the meeting where he said, gotta do the past. Gotta do the past. And that she was a villain. And so, yeah, that was the. That was the gravitas of the show. That she was once evil, now she's good. That's the way I saw it, is she's trying to redeem herself too. I mean, we all do that. We all make mistakes and try to redeem ourselves, I hope. And, the-- So it's a very relatable thing, although hopefully not, not many people are redeeming themselves for committing mass murders or stuff.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Hopefully not. But if they are, let's hope they have a lot to redeem themselves with.

RJ Stewart: Hopefully they're redeeming themselves in prison. Something like that.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Working with Lucy Lawless. Working with Renee O'Connor. How was that?

RJ Stewart: Just wonderful. You couldn't get two nicer people. They're just so warm and just great people. You know, I was thinking not this interview, but another interview I did a few months ago. I was trying to say, should I come up with something that humanizes them so I'm not just saying all the time, they're great people? And, you know, there were times that I got a phone call or two from Lucy where she was complaining about something about her character. And I don't think I ever did with Renee, but really, no, they're just nice all the time. And it was wonderful, rewarding. And the dailies were so great. It's not always true. The dailies are, uh. I mean, I'll even admit to the first script I wrote for Remington Steele, I was appalled at the dailies. And everybody had to keep telling me there's nothing worse than dailies. And it's never as bad as the dailies, and it's never as good as that first cut when you have the music in it. Those are the two extremes you gotta keep away with. ‘Cause when you finally get the music and the sound right and stuff, there's still a lot of editing to go. Probably making it shorter. But you're so relieved that it's not that horrible thing you saw in the dailies. So then you think, oh, Emmy! So at first it's like, I'm done. I'm gonna hang myself. But by the time I got to Xena, I was a little more ready for that. But it was no problem because Lucy and Renee were just so good all the time. And there was just no. And then when I go down there, they're always so warm and charming and such good people.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Now, did they ever go, okay, walking on the horse or whatever? Was there some point where they were like, this is crazy. This is too crazy.

RJ Stewart: I don't remember it. But there was some controversy with Renee's hair when she cut it short or--

Susan Lambert Hatem: Anna is nodding.

RJ Stewart: I don't remember what it was. Either she didn't want to, or she did and Rob didn't want her to. Something like that. But I never heard anyone-- When you're writing. I don't think I ever mentioned hair length in any script I wrote. So I could care less. And she looked great either way, so I didn't. But I remember some controversy about that. So do you remember what it was?

Anna Schekel: Oh, maybe not in the context of Renee's personal opinion. But I remember the lesbian following was very upset about it. Because it made Gabrielle more butch than Xena. And everyone was really upset about it.

RJ Stewart: Oh, wow. I didn’t know that.

Anna Schekel: And so there was a big. They were like, they're not allowed to do that. Gabrielle's the more feminine one. And it was crazy.

RJ Stewart: Wow. That was something I-- Mercifully, uh. I did not know that. But there was something in the. I would tell you, because that would be a simple one to give some texture to it. But I just don't remember whether she liked it or didn't like it. I think maybe she got the haircut and Rob was. You know, I think maybe that was it, but I don't remember.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Well, we have noticed in 80s and 90s television, women's hair is very important. There's a lot of discussion at the network level. There was a lot of discussion in Scarecrow & Mrs. King when Kate Jackson cut her hair and everybody freaked out. Yeah.

RJ Stewart: So now this is secondhand, but I thought it'd throw some juice at you. Evidently, Kate Jackson was the hardest person to work with in the history. Have you heard that about your—

Susan Lambert Hatem: I've heard that, yes.

RJ Stewart: I’ve heard that from writers who are, like, battle scarred, beat up. And they come into Xena trying to get work. And I'm going, oh, how was working with Kate? You know, so of course I did. You know, that's total secondhand gossipy stuff.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I know.

RJ Stewart: So I throw it out there.

Susan Lambert Hatem: No, it is. It has come up. Because it comes up a lot. And-- Then there's that thing of like. Well, but in some ways, so was Glenn Gordon Caron or so was. You know, like, it doesn't get quite as turned, I think, when it's men doing it. They're just being demanding.

RJ Stewart: And I heard that after I left, he had nothing to do with me. But, you know, after the-- Pierce-- After the Remington became big, Pierce became difficult. And then after. Do you know remember what they did to him with Bond?

Sharon Johnson: Yes. Oh, yes.

RJ Stewart: Evidently, he was a handful after--

Susan Lambert Hatem: I'm Bond. Remington Bond.

RJ Stewart: For the listeners who don't remember, he was offered the part of James Bond a few years before he actually started doing it. And NBC wouldn't let him out of his Remington Steele contract. Even though when he got the offer-- This is the way I understood it. I was not with the show at that time. But from what I understand, they didn't plan to make any more episodes, but they still had them under contract. So they made a few two-hour movies just to keep them under contract.

Susan Lambert Hatem: They made them come back. They canceled the show.

RJ Stewart: I'm standing in line at a movie theater. I wish I could remember which movie. I think it was in Burbank. And I look over and there's Pierce, and he's, I guess with his family or something. And he, you know. You know, you can tell he recognizes me, but he can't place it, you know. So he walks over and he extends his hand. And I said, RJ Stewart. I was on Remington. He said, oh, yes, RJ. What are you doing now? And at that time, I was doing features. I said, I'm doing some features here. And he went, you know, this was when that controversy was going on with NBC. And he did not like. He was very clearly. And I said, yeah, I heard what NBC did to you. That's [wolf whistle]. He said, oh, yeah. Oops. Ah. And so, uh. Anyway. But he did very well, though.

Susan Lambert Hatem: He did okay. It turned out okay. It all worked out. But it was so in my memory, based on what we learned when we covered the show. They had canceled the show. Then it was announced he was going to be Bond. And so then the reruns of the show did so well because suddenly they're like. It brought all this attention to the show. And so then they're like, well, we still have. They technically can still pull it back. And they pulled them, everybody back. So Stephanie had been cast as the female lead in Robocop.

RJ Stewart: Really?

Susan Lambert Hatem: And she had to leave that show and she was fully cast. It wasn't just an announced gossip. But yeah, so I don't think either of them were that thrilled to come back for that final time. But-- Yeah, but yeah, television, man.

Sharon Johnson: I'm sure many people have learned about that. Learned from that situation in terms of either when they make announcements or what they have in their contract about being able to get out of it or timing and all that other kind of stuff. So. Yeah, because that was so unfair, I think, to both of them at the end of the day.

RJ Stewart: Yeah, it was brutal. I could see. And I could see the tension in him.

Susan Lambert Hatem: This is just him trying to get Bond.

RJ Stewart: Yeah. This guy who I barely remember his name is working in features, but I can't get. And they offered me the part, you know.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And I can't get there. But he got there.

Sharon Johnson: Exactly. He eventually-- He. He didn't know it at the time, but--

RJ Stewart: I don’t think we need to play a violin for him. Well, he has had tragedies in his life, but his career went very well. What a. What a cool guy.

Susan Lambert Hatem: What a cool guy.

RJ Stewart: What a cool guy.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And so. Okay, but. So let's go back to Xena and Gabrielle for a minute because it's a buddy story. It's a friendship story. It's a love story. Did you know what line you were drawing for that female relationship?

RJ Stewart: No. We were informed by the audience of it. And developing the subtext started becoming a part of story sessions. Like, oh, and this would be cool in the episode I wrote called A Day in the Life. I had originally imagined them in the old westerns. They would. After a cattle drive or something, they'd be, get their tub. Their hot water tub, you know, and they'd be, you know, side by side, you know, Lee Marvin and somebody else. Or I remember one when Glenn Ford, Jack Lemmon were. And the-- And then we were gonna go there, but then I was right and I said, what am I doing? They gotta be in the bathtub together. Right? So we went that way. There was no question of that. But no. When they came to me and said, you know, this has a huge lesbian following. I said, oh, cool. You know, let's see what we can do.

Sharon Johnson: Did you get any pushback from the studio or anything?

RJ Stewart: Not at all.

Sharon Johnson: Well, that’s good.

RJ Stewart: Not in the slightest. The studio was Universal, the distributor was Tribune. And neither one of them. They just. If it makes. If the numbers are good, they were fine with it. And so. Yeah, no, no, I didn't. I never heard it, anyway. I think Rob is probably good at keeping some of the bull[wolf whistle] away from us, you know, so.

Sharon Johnson: Guess that's part of the job of the executive producer, to deal with a lot of that, you know.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Because it has. It is now kind of known that it was this powerful show for lesbians. Were they or weren't they? Am I allowed to ask that? Like, I'm curious what you think. I'm curious, you know, were Xena and Gabrielle in a romantic, intimate relationship? Were they in a gay relationship? What would you say today to that answer?

RJ Stewart: I leave that up to the fans. And the fans have decided. After 30 years,30 years this year of when we first premiered. They're gay. There's no question they're gay. I know that because I go to a convention. I went to a convention this year where they celebrate them being gay. It's held every year. I'm not saying everybody that goes to the convention is gay. But I think everybody is fine with them being gay. And I recommend everyone go to that Xena convention. Because it's a beautiful thing to see so many people who get so much meaning out of that relationship between Gabrielle and Xena. It's really inspirational.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Well, Anna, I'm curious though, what it meant to you. Because I think it meant a lot to women to see women. Female friendship is rare. Close female friendship very rare on television. And obviously at the time, same sex relationship, very rare. And especially lesbian. It meant something to generations of people.

RJ Stewart: Absolutely.

Anna Schekel: I mean, it's interesting sort of what I was talking about earlier in the intro is I had been on a quest to find anything that had two women in love and kind of got--

RJ Stewart: Oh, they were in love. That I can answer definitively. They were in love.

Anna Schekel: And so I had seen things of that in a more commercial or explicit way. Which is to say there are like a handful of lesbian rom-coms that existed back when I was looking. Not now. There are a lot more. And so while it was something that I was sort of scouring for, I think I was just so charmed by the show that it-- That while it was the inciting incident to watch the show, it really took a backseat almost immediately.

RJ Stewart: That's another thing too, is that you gotta understand what is. My job is to get the order for the next season, that it's successful. And, you know, we were looking at each episode what we could do best to get the most eyeballs on our show. And that's the way we went. And we had a lesbian working on the show, Liz Freeman, who's probably my. Well, not probably. She's my best friend still working in the business. And she was not going that direction at all. She did not enthusiastically support anything like that. Not that we ever discussed it that seriously because we were going episode by episode and trying to worry about ratings and getting that order for the next season. And so one of the things I've seen in different articles, different people have suggested it was discussed. It was never discussed in the sense of they are definitively gay. There was never a meeting I was in where we're committing totally to them having a gay relationship.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Well, and I think because it takes place in such a flexible world, both historically and magically, like it sort of fits a little bit to not answer all the questions. But where was the line, comedy wise? Right? Because there's a lot of humor. There's a lot of like--

RJ Stewart: With me it was much further than with Rob. Rob said, what's this thing where she. They're trying to get the sword out of the thing when we jump to the Middle Ages?

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah.

RJ Stewart: And then she comes in and takes the sword out and says, it's a joke, It's a joke. He says, but it has nothing to do with the story. Yeah, but it's a joke.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Jokes are fun.

RJ Stewart: So yeah, look, if. When I did a rewrite on a comedic episode and then gave it out and I heard people laughing in the other room, that made me feel great. And, you know, so, you know, I think when the one thing that didn't work is really silly stuff, I thought there was a point. I didn't. Wasn't with the show. I was working on Cleopatra. And they did a couple of shows like, I don't know what the hell they're doing. I have no idea what they were doing. And they were attempts at comedy. Do you know what I'm talking about?

Anna Schekel: I think so.

RJ Stewart: I can't remember what they were, but when I came back to the show, I watched all the episodes. Uh, I said, what the hell is going on with that show? And he said it was your fault. You weren't here to stop me.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah, well, that is.

Anna Schekel: I feel like Xena's a pretty. You know, there are episodes that are really wacky and so it's like, oh, that's fun, that's campy. But to this day, the episode Married with Fish Sticks, if you guys have never seen it—

RJ Stewart: That’s it. That was it.

Anna Schekel: It feels like a fever dream. Yeah, yeah, it's a crazy episode.

RJ Stewart: Who gets the writing credit on it?

Susan Lambert Hatem: I don't know. I don't know. Was it you? It wasn't you?

RJ Stewart: No, no, it wasn't me.

Anna Schekel: It says there's a JR Stewart here.

Susan Lambert Hatem: So one of the other TV shows that you created, Man of the People, working with James Garner and Kate Mulgrew. I just like both of those actors.

RJ Stewart: Yeah, they're both great. I mean, Jim was just a hardest working guy. Uh, when we did that show he had a lot of problems with his legs. So we were limited in how to do it. I wrote it for as an hour dramatic and he wanted to do half hour schedules because of that very reason. Kate and I share the same birthday. April 29th. Listen to the people born on our birthday. Willie Nelson, Michelle Pfeiffer, Daniel Day Lewis, the Duke of Wellington, Jerry Seinfeld. Is that a loaded birthday?

Susan Lambert Hatem: That's a loaded birthday.

Anna Schekel: Pretty good. It's a good day to be born.

RJ Stewart: And my granddaughter was born on my birthday.  

Anna Schekel: Legacy continued.  

RJ Stewart: Yeah, you know, we'd make jokes about it. I really to this day, like the script I wrote for the pilot a lot. Uh, even the cut down version, the half-hour version that I had to do over a weekend, by the way.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Some movies that I had questions about. Uh, you wrote Lovers, Partners and Spies, which was directed by Jan Eliasberg, who we have interviewed on the show. Do you remember that movie?

RJ Stewart: Yes, yes, absolutely. That was a pilot.

Susan Lambert Hatem: That was a pilot. Oh, okay.

RJ Stewart: That was a pilot. Yeah. Uh, worked with her in Mexico. She was. This is-- Don't remember a lot about it. Okay, I'm going to.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Well, it was 1988.

RJ Stewart: Yeah, during the writer's strike. Oh, that's what I remember. Uh, I'm down in Mexico and it's the writer's strike and of course I'm the writer and they expect me to be making changes, but the Writers Guild is telling me you cannot make changes. Okay? So that was terrifying. Uh, that was very high stress because, you know, there's. Yeah. I mean, on the one hand, you can always use as excuse not to make a bad change, you know, like, I can't make any changes. I'm sorry. But sometimes I'm, oh, God, this needs to be made change, you know. And I took the strike seriously, you know, so it was very.

Susan Lambert Hatem: That's a tough.

RJ Stewart: That's a tough way to do it. And, you know, people are, you know, when it, you know simple things, like we need to, you know, we need a different out here, I would just do it on the set, you know. Oh, crucify me, you know, for changing a line at the end of one scene. But if they really wanted, like a developed scene, I was really uncomfortable about that.  

Susan Lambert Hatem: Oh, my God. All right. And God Created Woman.  

RJ Stewart: Yes  

Susan Lambert Hatem: Working with Rebecca De Mornay.

RJ Stewart: Working with Rebecca was wonderful. I got to visit her at the Hotel Marmont, where she was staying, and we went over the script several times. And, you know, Rebecca's performance is the main reason to watch that movie. She took some unfair criticism at the time. I don't know why. But in retrospect, it's very convincing and, of course, incredibly beautiful and sexy and. And that's the. That's the reason to watch And God Created Woman. Working with Vadim was fun. He was a charming guy. He-- In some ways, in the 1980s, the movie seemed anachronistic, even, you know, for the 1980s. It's interesting that today young people watch it, they kind of write off that anachronism as that's the 1980s, you know. And even though in the 1980s, it was anachronistic, you know, in some ways. I mean, you know, Roger Vadim was a giant in French cinema in the 50s and 60s. And by the 80s, I don't know if America was waiting for the next Roger Vadim movie. But I talk to young people today who like it, and some of them will love it. So, you know, I think. And what they love is Rebecca De Mornay is, is definitely makes it worth the price of a mission.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah, she's pretty charming. You know, when you say anachronistic, I mean, there was also. Roger Vadim directed another movie in 1956 called And God Created Woman, but it's a completely different.

RJ Stewart: That's right.

Susan Lambert Hatem: It's a completely different story.

RJ Stewart: Roger Ebert said I mean. You know, he said, I think-- This is Roger Ebert talking. He said, I believe this is the first time a title's been remade by the original director. Not the movie itself, just the title.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Amazon High with Selma Blair.  

RJ Stewart: Yeah. Now that's kind of a weird one because it tested very well. But here's, this is inside Hollywood thing here. You have to have the star locked up if you're gonna do a pilot. And no matter how charming and wonderful and, and cool the star may be, if you don't have him or her locked up, do not go down that road. Because we could have gotten a series out of that. It was tested very well. but we didn't have Selma locked up and her career was taken off. So big mistake.  

Sharon Johnson: Oh, my gosh. That seems kind of normal in terms of what would be done in terms of deals for pilots and things.

RJ Stewart: A few arguments about that in my time.

Susan Lambert Hatem: All right. And then The Rundown, 2003.

RJ Stewart: The Rundown, yes. That was a script I wrote for Warner Brothers. No, Universal produced it. And it was my calling kind of script for many years. You know, I mean I wrote the first draft in 88, I think? It come right after, right after the strike. Right after that strike. So it'd be 88-89 is when I was working on it with Scott Rudin. Do you know how he is?

Anna Schekel: Mhm.

RJ Stewart: People loved the script when I turned it in and I'm kind of disappointed it didn't go anywhere. Long story short, then The Rock appears in a movie called The Mummy. And they're just so convinced he's the next star. And so my two producers I know very well, unfortunately both of them have passed away now. But Chris Chesser and Karen Glasser were able to get the script to the Rock. And at that time, excuse me, they got it to Vince McMahon. This is where they, this is.

Susan Lambert Hatem: They went to, they went to WWE.

RJ Stewart: That's right. And he loved it and told Rob, this should be your next movie. And so, the-- And I had the script in turnaround. You know what turnaround is? You know, at a certain point when the studio has ignored your script enough, the writer gets it back. And so I made a sweet deal out of that and became a pretty good movie.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Part of the retirement.

RJ Stewart: Yeah, part of the retirement, yeah.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And Rosario Dawson was in that. Did you go on set for that?

RJ Stewart: Yeah, I did go on set, but I never saw her. The days I was on set. I mean, that was one of those obligatory things. They had to let me on set because I wrote the first draft. But she was never there. I met The Rock.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Christopher Walken's fun, as always, in there.

RJ Stewart: Oh, this is a story. I got our son. I got him a job on thing because I knew both producers and that was easy to do. So he was getting the cover signed by everybody on the show, which I have hanging on my wall, of the script when it was called Helldorado. That was my title for it, Helldorado. And so everybody's signing it and stuff. And, and he goes up to Walken and he says, what is this for? He says, that's for RJ Stewart. He's my stepfather. And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And he said, where's he? He should be here. I said, my son would tell it much better than I. But the point is that he didn't like all the rewrites they kept bringing. You know, he signed up for my script. You know, it's interesting. I go through that. I look at that once in a while. That thing with all the signatures on it. Rosario Dawson and you know. And it's amazing. You can read them all. And that's not true all the time. I still have the thing from Remington Steele that everybody signed. I can't read anybody. I don't know what.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Oh my gosh. Anna, do you have any last--

Anna Schekel: Any last questions? Yeah, so I will just end on a comment which is that I extremely love the show. It's my favorite show, so thank you for that. And it has kind of going back to an earlier topic. I think it's incredible that women are in every single role. The hero, the helper, the villain is incredible. I feel like you and your team have done incredible jobs or an incredible job at writing characters that are women instead of writing women characters. And thank you so much. It's been really nice to meet you.

RJ Stewart: So kind of you to say that. By the way, the Crazy Hawk that it also has almost every key character is a woman. Jube being the exception.

Sharon Johnson: Well, do keep us posted on the progress towards getting it made into a miniseries. I'm chomping at the bit to see it.

RJ Stewart: I wrote it as a novel, so I mean, if it gets made in miniseries, that's icing. You know, it's a distant success, scare. But I wrote it as a novel, so that's the way--

Susan Lambert Hatem: And will there'll be another novel or--

RJ Stewart: Yes, there will be.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Thank you so very much for--.

RJ Stewart: Thank you. But I really enjoyed it. You guys are really good at this.

Anna Schekel: Oh, thank you.

Sharon Johnson: We appreciate you taking the time to come up here and talk with us.

RJ Stewart: It was not stressful at all.

Susan Lambert Hatem: It's really a delight. And you're our first 90s TV Ladies guest for 90s TV Ladies character.

RJ Stewart: So was the-- Now, Lindsay Wagner was the 70s, right?

Susan Lambert Hatem: She was 70s. So we definitely, we've always said we were ready to go to the 70s or the 90s because they're very informed by or informing of the 80s. But we tend to stick to shows that are led by women. So an 80s TV Ladies show and everybody kind of get. We used to discuss it a lot in the early first season of what it meant. And I feel like it's where the woman drives the story is an 80s Lady show. All right, well, thank you.

RJ Stewart: Thank you.

Sharon Johnson: Thank you both.

Anna Schekel: Yes.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Anna, thank you so very much for coming on the show with us.

Anna Schekel: You've been having me. I had a really good time.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I was so delighted to have you join us. I love our 90s TV Babies. I don't know if you've listened to any of those episodes of 80s TV Ladies, but now you're officially a 90s TV Babies as well. So we might have to get you back on, show you some 80s shows, see what you can make heads or tails of. But I am, you know, you're my daughter from another mother.

Anna Schekel: 90s TV Nepo Baby.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And I was really glad when this came up. I was like, I have to get Anna on this show because I knew you knew Xena back and forth.

Anna Schekel: Yes. Thank you so much for the opportunity. This is truly a once in a lifetime chance for someone who loves the show.

Sharon Johnson: And I think it was clear that he really appreciated how much you loved the show as well. So that was really lovely to see.

Anna Schekel: Yeah, he really thought I knew more dates than I did. But that was very kind of him.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Anyway, thank you for coming on the show.

Anna Schekel: Thank you for having me.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And here's a little trailer for the book that we got from, ah, RJ himself.  

Narrator: Deirdre lives for one purpose -- to get her sister back. If she has to kill the kidnappers, that won't be a problem. She's good at that. Crazy Hawk by RJ Stewart.

Sharon Johnson: In today's audiography, you can get the novel Crazy Hawk bookstore.org or your neighborhood bookstore.

Susan Lambert Hatem: You can listen to the book on Audible. It's narrated by Katie Hageman and I highly recommend it. She does a great job.

Sharon Johnson: You can find out more about RJ Stewart at IMDb and links will be in our description.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Hey guys, we have one last show of Richard Hatem’s Paranormal Bookshelf Light in the Dark Tour. We're gonna be in Long Island, New York for a special performance at a private home and you'll get to go through a really fun haunted house before the show. It'll be Saturday, September 27th. Please join us. You can get tickets at rhpb.eventbrite.com or off Richard Haddam's paranormalbookshelf.com website.

Sharon Johnson: As always, we hope 80s TV Ladies brings you joy and laughter and lots of fabulous new and old shows to watch. All of which will bring us closer to being amazing ladies of the 21st century.

Amy Englehardt [Singing]: 80s TV Ladies, So sexy and so pretty. 80s TV Ladies, Steppin’ out into the city. 80s TV Ladies, often treated kind of sh-[wolf whistle]. Working hard for the money in a man’s world. 80s TV Ladies!

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