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Episode_231_Moonlighting: Susan and Sharon’s Top Episodes_Transcript
1:00:32
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
Moonlighting, episode, season, love, television, shows, maddie, scenes, television show, watch, day, case, character, shakespeare, write, listen, set, detective agency, glenn, bruce willis
SPEAKERS
Melissa Roth, Sharon Johnson, Susan Lambert Hatem

80s TV Ladies Theme Song 00:01.

80s TV Ladies, I’m so sexy and so pretty. 80s TV Ladies, I’m steppin out into the city. 80s TV Ladies, I been treated kind of sh#*ty. Working hard for the money in a man’s world. 80s TV Ladies!

Melissa Roth 00:22
Welcome to 80s TV Ladies with your hosts, Sharon Johnson and Susan Lambert Hatem.

Sharon Johnson 00:28
Hello, I'm Sharon.

Susan Lambert Hatem 00:30
And I'm Susan. And we're the hosts of 80s. TV lady. Yes,

we are. And today we are here to talk about Moonlighting.

We so rarely get to talk just you and I together anymore, because we have so many amazing guests on and it's sort of become a more interview show, but I miss when just you and I can go, Oh, and remember this. And this is what I think and all that stuff. So we're going to do that. Yeah, well, knighting.

So far, we've we've managed to do that at least once per show. I kind of miss it too. But that said I wouldn't trade any of our guests. No at all. So it's, it's a great problem, if you will to have.

So this is a great Episode to listen to in preparation, and then go and start our Moonlighting episodes from Glenn Gordon Caron. So

for the uninitiated, Moonlighting was a television show on that aired on ABC Television Network in the late 80s. And it was about a former supermodel who falls on hard times, thanks to her crooked business manager and finds her only remaining asset is a detective agency. And so she's decided to get involved on a day to day basis to to help run the business. So the Moonlight detective agency, Maddie is now determined to find clients and solve cases so that they can make some money. And they actually do have some success, which is a little surprising. And so far as her not having any experience and the sort of haphazard way the office seems to be managed or run or not. So yeah, it's a fun show.

It's so interesting now to recognize, based on what, you know, Glen Gordon Caron says about the show, which is that he didn't understand the detective genre and why it was popular and why every show had to be a detective show. And he wanted to kill it. Basically, what he wanted to do was send it up. And so that I think, explains a lot of the things that were inexplicable about the shooting was he really didn't care to make logical sense. And it does make you think about the detective genre, right? Oh,

sure. Yeah, frankly, for me, the detective II part of it wasn't the best part of the show. Anyway, what was the best part of the show? Well, the best part of the show were the characters and the the interaction and, and some of the the license that Glenn Gordon Caron and the writers took with how they put together each Episode, not just the whole fourth wall breaking aspect of it, which was always kind of fun. But just the episodes themselves. I mean, the cases were all for the most part. Were really just out there, if you will. And more often than not, the Episode of The Week was more about David and Maddie and Agnes and bird to some degree, as opposed to let's go solve a case.

Yeah. And I also had sort of thought that Curtis Armstrong was around the whole time, but he doesn't come until Season three.

Yeah, for some reason. I did remember he was not around for the first couple of seasons. And then then they brought him on board.

And we haven't even talked about the star Cybill Shepherd and Bruce Willis, Bruce Willis and unknown at the time, Cybill Shepherd, a known entity. The draw of the show, as you were the reason I tuned in, because she was a former model, and famous actress and personality because she had been with Peter Bogdanovich. Big filmmaker, and I don't know, I just knew of her. I think I

knew of her too, but I honestly don't know. Or even have any sense of why I started tuning in, when the show came on the air. With a lot of shows, I can either remember it or at least look at the show as it exists and say, Oh, I understand why he was interested in that show. But in this case, I don't know what it was, but for some reason I started watching it and I watched it until the very end. So there was something about it. Obviously that piqued my interest and kept my interest to some degree or another and as long as it aired

Well, it was on ABC from March 3 1985, to May 14 1989. So a significant portion, while all of the late 80s, right, and aired 66 or 67 episodes, depending on whether they count the pilot as two episodes, or one,

which is not as many as you would expect from a show that was on the air for five years. And that was because of the production issues. And that came about for a variety of reasons over the course of the show, in terms of the number of episodes they were actually able to make. Well,

it is quite possible to say the Moonlighting, Anglin Karan broke the television model as well as the fourth wall. Because it is interesting that basically he was like Yeah, but why do I have to do 23 episodes. And then just proceeded to not? Well,

to a certain degree, at some point circumstances took that out of his hands, whether it be simple shepherds pregnancy, or Bruce Willis's shoulder injury, yes, and things like that. And then of course, there were the ongoing production issues of them getting episodes done on time. So there was a whole bunch of things that I think prevented them from from making the normal 20 to 2426 episodes a year that were pretty standard. During that time,

it makes them both ahead of his time a little bit. You know, if you were like, Oh, we're only going to need eight episodes a Season from you 10 episodes a Season from you, then suddenly, they could have done they did just that basically,

I think, though, that at the time, ABC would have been absolutely positively thrilled to have 20 plus episodes a Season, probably as many as they could make because the show was a hit, which meant more revenue. So the more new episodes they had, the more money they could make, which of course is why ABC and NBC and CBS etc, exist in the first place. They're there to make money. They're not just there just to entertain us. That's incidental. That's

incidental. It's just look at the shiny object, and now buy some cigarettes

to make those people happy. So they'll give us more money. So they'll give us

more money. Yeah, so then we can pay for the show. It's an interesting model, one we'd seem to be going back to.

I know, isn't it fascinating. Apparently, they couldn't come up with anything better and very, very predictable. Anyway, that's another story for another day. But getting back to the late 80s. In terms of television, I think it goes without saying that ABC would have loved as many episodes as they were able to or willing to make. For a variety of reasons. They didn't make nearly as many episodes, I think, as ABC would have liked. Well, and it

is the first show where I remember there being knowledge of a fan base that wanted something from the show that it wasn't delivering, right we that happens all the time now, because of the internet because of social media, that that basically fans instantly are giving their response to an Episode, they're instantly able to respond, talk to filmmakers and television makers and stars and start a whole, you know, I don't like this, I want that I want to ship this relationship. I want this to happen. Why did they do this, sort of the modern way of television is that you're going to have instant feedback. And it's very easy to get feedback on television show. Now, at the time, the only way to do it was to write letters and make phone calls. Right? I can't think of other than shows being cancelled. I don't think of it well, there weren't a lot of shows where it's like there was an expectation that there would be an Episode and then there wasn't one and they did a rerun.

08:48
Moonlighting was a unicorn in that respect, because for a variety of reasons, some of which I'll never understand the network, sort of let this go on. As it continued to happen.

I don't think they knew how to stop it. I think the train was had left the station. And they were like, well, we want it to be different. But they didn't they were like but at the same time, we can't touch anything. Well, they

could have, you know, taken the drastic step of saying to Glenn, thanks. We're going to bring somebody on board, who's going to write and run the show in a way that will ensure that we get the episodes that we need to air when we need them. Thank you very much. Well,

and nowadays if you are a young Creator, who has not run a television show, they pair you with a more powerful television person who has and I think that was Jay Daniels maybe but they Daniels was basically just making what Glenn wanted, which is good. You want that if you're the creator of the show. But yeah, it was it was just so interesting because it was so hard to get At the sense of the cultural differences between the 80s. And now, and how feedback took longer, right, it was hard to respond in the moment. We weren't used to American Idol. There wasn't the call in and give your opinion right now. While it's on the air.

It was like Jerry Lewis has telethon.

And Saturday Night Live, and the call and response of this show was the beginning of that kind of thing. Well, there

were other shows, like Cagney & Lacey that were saved by the audience, right. I

definitely think when the show got canceled, or was going to be canceled, or there was talk about being canceled, that was beloved, then definitely television viewers, but it was the beginning of television viewers finding that power in the in the 80s. Right. Fighting the cancellation of shows, and being successful at it with Cagney, & Lacey, and with several shows after. So it was the beginning of sort of the consumer finding their power in entertainment and

technology allowing for easing the way to get to the people who are making these decisions on mass to let them know and let their voice be heard. Because it was much more difficult before that

it was organizing fan power to write letters and make phone calls and write letters in your local newspaper. That was part of the campaign for these television shows.

Well, the local newspaper was very important when it came to the editorial page. Nobody knows what that is anymore.

That's an opinion page now, right? sold to the highest bidder apparently. Yeah.

I mean, people it was a community thing. People would write it and letter to the editor.

Yeah. And I would imagine a lot of people called their local station and said, Hey, where's Moon mining? And the they, the station manager realized and they got hire somebody to answer all these calls is calling the network going. What

is happening? Exactly, because looking through the number of episodes, the first Season is short. It's the half Season. Yeah, that's absolutely the other ones. They're short, too. But they get they get it's like between 16 and 18. So there's a number of weeks where they're throwing out reruns because they just don't have the product because every other show on television runs 23.

Yeah. And they'll start again, just the idea that you're rerunning an Episode. Not in the summer, right? Not after you've not after you finish them. But just because you

you don't have anything. Well, we better show something.

Can have dead air for an hour.

Yeah. So people I'm sure got upset. Yeah, absolutely.

Well, let's talk some more about Shall we start with the pilot and kind of go from there? Yes. Yeah. It was clear to me from the first Episode that there was some sort of spark between the characters that play by Cybill Shepherd and Bruce Willis. Having said that, I'm usually not a fan of the will they or won't they have it in most shows, with Remington Steele being one of the exceptions, mainly because of the way in which that was presented. But nevertheless, you just couldn't help but love the roguish David Addison, because he was fun, Mario. You know,

they do have a chemistry and you do go, Oh, I like watching these two people try to figure it out. What's funny is I from the pilot, I only had remembered the scenes of them in the office. I didn't remember anything about any case. I didn't remember there were a ton of people in there. I was just sort of remembering when we were watching it again. And I was like, Oh my God, wait, what is happening? I know one way they can make enough money to save the agency. Maybe they have to fire some employees that don't have anything to do. And you're like waiting for them to have a conversation about it but the entire

first two seasons Addison needs an audience to do all of his antics. Yes, his I totally forgot to when I watched it again. I'm like, Who are all these people in the office? I thought it was just Ms. DiPesto. Yeah, I did too. That was it.

I just remembered the characters. I remember David. I remembered Maddie. I remembered Agnes DiPesto. And I remembered Bert, but I didn't really remember anything in terms of the the actual cases, because that to me, wasn't what the show was.

No. I remember the dialogue. Oh, yes. Yeah, that was so unusual for television at the time. It was so theatrical. It was so much, you know, kind of old classic movies which I loved it As you know, that same kind of spark that you saw in the sort of romantic comedies and and screwball comedies of the day that had had a class, like I like a lot of words, I was very excited by all the words in the show like, and the verbal banter, and the quickness of the show. It was one of those shows that would have benefited greatly from being on VHS or digital where you can go Wait, what did they just say, wait, I want to go back and hit because you that's the first instinct is to be like, I need this to rerun so that I can hear every line,

or at least hear more of the lines because there's absolutely no way to hear it. But which is kind of part of the fun is you're sitting there going, you know, the technique of it all it was, it was fantastic. It

was really wonderful. And I think I had forgotten just how game simple Shepherd is for playing basically the straight woman. Even more so than say Stephanie Zimbalist, because she's the newbie to, she's incredibly stylish, she's incredibly gorgeous. And yet, you also are like, Oh, she's, she may be able to make this happen, she may be able to rein him in just enough and yet have this sort of bounce of life back in her life? And

at no point did she come across as a dumb blonde? No, her character is obviously very intelligent, very able. And when she said she wanted to try to put this business on its feet, you're like, I believe you can, if that's what you want to do. She was clearly the adult in the room, which

is both awesome, because she did a really good job of doing that. But it's also the role that women are often put in to, is being the adult in the room, that's making sure that things are happening, so that the guy in the room can just be wacky, and fun and awesome, and come up with genius ideas.

But like it was Remington Steele, though, it was clear who the boss was, yes, in this case, it was it was definitely Maddie. And over time, I think she wore him down more than the other way around, that he had to start toeing the line a bit more in order to make things happen to make things as much as he may have pushed back against it. And never lost, you know, a lot of his David-ness. But still, he's the one that had to bend to her will to a certain extent when when it came to business pleased.

Yeah, I yeah, I think that, weirdly, she stayed in charge a lot more. Even. Not necessarily on the cases. But in that office. It's hard not to be talking about Remington Steele and make comparisons to Remington Steele while

they're both shows with a man and a woman trying to run a detective agency. Obviously, the circumstances are different. But still, you know, the flamboyant guy and the the steady Woman Yeah, is basically the same.

I thought the pilot held up pretty great. Better than I anticipated. There was a moment, probably 20 years ago, where I did revisit Moonlighting just like, you know, because I was sort of buying DVDs at the time, I think, or something. I was like we all were Yes. and watched some Episode. I don't know if it was the pilot. And I was a little bit like, Oh, this isn't. I caught up my sister and said we thought the show was so great. And we thought the show was so feminist. And she's like, it's not, is it? And I'm like, I don't think it is. Now that was a long time ago. But it wasn't the 80s. And so I was fully expecting to not enjoy rewatching Moonlighting as much as I enjoyed rewatching Remington Steele. And yet, I think I did enjoy it more than I did at that point in my life. Whenever that was that I did you know, however, is the show feminist. And is it progressive?

I don't think it's either of those things. Yeah, I just I and it certainly wasn't intended to be and it was, as you said earlier, Glenn Gordon Caron wanted to break the mold. And he wasn't particularly careful about how he did that. He just thought detector shows were ridiculous. So he's going to write what he considers to be kind of a ridiculous show. So no, I don't think it is. And I don't think gosh, I just don't remember but I don't think I thought it was then even Yeah, I can't imagine that I thought it was feminist. I thought it was fun. I thought it was entertaining. meaning, but I don't think in any way that I thought it was feminist. Back when I was watching originally, and certainly not when I was watching it this time, I

20:09
thought that she holds her own a lot more than I gave her credit for. In my in my first rewatch again, and I have much more appreciation for how challenging that particular job is. To not only look ridiculously beautiful, but do all of that banter and all of that stuff

was he does a lot of crap falls they do very physical,

physical comedy, like she's doing goofy stuff. And yet she's looks classy. The whole time. Very

much like, you know, Kate Hepburn Yes. In the 30s Yeah. Bringing Up Baby. Yeah. Philadelphia Story.

It's stunning. Yeah.

And not to mention the the, the breadth of style and genre and everything else that they did. She had to sing in the nightclub in one Episode. They did Shakespeare in another Episode. Every week they're doing you know this their version of 30s You know, movies with with all this snappy banter between the characters and you just never knew what the heck was going to be coming at you next, and she held around. By far not just held around, she excelled. She excelled

at it. Yes, she's very funny.

She's very funny. And that's such a hard role to be funny in. It's such a different character from the Stephanie Zimbalist character in Remington Steele from Laura Holt, Laura Holt, who is I don't need a man, I don't want a man, I want to run my agency, I just want to be the best detective in the world. And that's all I care about. And then I get a little sidetracked by this guy who has walked in who's both a hindrance and to help make to that. And yet, this is just a different, she's just a different beast.

Yeah, what do they call it, the fish out of water,
she's a fish out of water. She's learning to be a detective. She has no idea what she's doing. And yet, she's also with crazy people.

And yet, you kind of buy it, like, there's something about it, you totally buy it, you totally buy that she's like, this is what I'm going to be trying to do with very little kind of laid out for you story wise, or even character wise. It's all built by her as an actress.

And I think she's the voice and the vision of the audience who's like, these crazy people that I'm supposed to be working with and trying to earn enough money to, you know, keep the agency open and to hopefully make some money to live off of and if you're walking into this room, how are you going to handle this? And I thought she was very good at being the eyes and ears and the voice of those of us sitting out in the audience gone. These people are not smart enough. I could deal with this.

Yeah, yeah. And the Mr. Pesto, like, she's dropped into a very goofy world, and is both very serious, and also embracing the goofy. And that's just so unique. And that's one of the things I'm like, that's one of the things that was so unique about the show. And so again, even though it's not a feminist show, she's such a unique female character. There's something that feels like it allows another space for women to live in. It's always dangerous when women are funny, and beautiful. I think, I think that ends up causing a lot of trouble for certain people. And it's not allowed, but just the ownership that she has in the space. And on that screen. It was really interesting to revisit the show because of her because of them because of of the breaking apart of television storytelling, which had been done. You know, when you look at like, you know, the older shows that Glenn mentions, but hadn't been done like this now in the modern era. I

think they were more filmic. They were very young. He says he didn't he wanted to to film so he was squishing a two hour film into an hour of television. Yeah.

Not a lot of two hour plots. Just a lot of

concepts. I'm not saying to our plot, but it you know, the bigness of film was different than television at the time. Yeah, that's what he's breaking away from. Yeah, you know, now you have every

hope shows Like, again looks like $10 million, because it's, it costs anywhere from seven to $20 million. Now, an Episode of television, which is insane for the big stuff, where it costs, you know, $100,000. It's made by people who aren't getting paid, right. But it's fine. But that first Season is so interesting, too. I really, the other episodes in that first Season that stand out for me is the next murder you hear. Yeah, same for me.

And as I was rewatching, it, I thought it was so interesting the way it opened the episodes about a DJ who apparently is murdered on air. And the opening is showing all these people across Los Angeles who are listening to this. And so we're we're getting the sense of the city. And these people in these various places, whether they be at home or at work, or wherever in their car, listening to this, and this is where they listen to the show and how they listen. I it just felt so unique. It's not the way I think most television shows, then certainly, and maybe even now, open their show, because they will spend and who knows why. But there are a lot of reasons why it may have happened that way. But usually, they give as much screen time as possible to their leads when it's on a television show. And this is taking away five minutes of screen time from their leads and relying on the audience to to be to stick around and be immersed in this world and listen to this voice as these people around the city are listening to I just I I was totally enthralled. It

was it's a very filmic opening to Melissa's point it is it is about setting a tone. Setting the case up, which does happen in Detective shows. And it also

sets a tone that carries through the rest of the Episode as they're going through the case and trying to find this guy. It's not. I don't know, I just found it to be fascinating. It

was it was unique then, and it actually holds up I think as unique now, because you're also telling the story of of 80s radio, right? And how many people across the city listen to their local radio station and their local DJ, either in the morning or late at night, or just the way that people listen to podcast now. It was live, right. And things could happen. And so the I thought that that one was a standout. The other thing that was sort of standout was them, again, continuing to figure out how Maddie and David were going to work together. And you see that starting to develop in a really interesting way where she gets to be like, Oh, I'm good at this, you know? So it's also got a little bit of Scarecrow, Mrs. King in it. She's bringing her special model skills, which have to do with being famous to help. The one thing that was a little bit annoying is this constant. We're out of money. We don't have a case we don't have a thing and you're like there's there's 12 people

and overhead. fancy office, your fancy

office in Century City,

please.

I think that was line Caron having little fun with the audience because he's probably thinking the audience is sitting there going Yeah, exactly that but what about those? Why

don't they just listen to a throwaway line, we can put these people out of work.

telling you they're the chorus.

do enough for the chorus in that early.

They're his chorus. Yeah, he comes out and because a lot of them getting he's dancing on tabletops with Mexican hats. And yeah, and she's saying, you know, get your act together. And it happens in front of the employees.

Yeah. Season two has couple of just really fantastic Season two starts

with the opening. Right? It's the fourth wall break. Okay, it really starts with Maddie and David talking to the camera and saying, we're a little short in the Episode timewise. And so if someone going, our show isn't long enough. And we have to add a scene of us just talking about how it's not long enough. Because we talk too fast. It's just such an insane, insane concept. So it's breaking the fourth wall because it's having these characters say what's going on in the theater and a television show. And then they break it again. At the end of the where they where they cut, and then suddenly, there's Cybill Shepherd and Bruce Willis. That was like, oh wait. We're not playing by the rules anymore and But just the idea that like, oh, wait, I guess television shows do need to be a certain amount of time. It never occurred to me, even though they were, but like, but that like you, you had to hit that you have to hit it upon casting. Thank you very much. And you guys know, we don't You don't have to hit it in streaming anymore. But you had to hit it then. And that's sometimes hard to do very hard to do. So one of the first sets I went on to was the 18th. It was actually the second set I went on to the first set was Hardcastle and McCormick, your favorite. My favorite note may be one of the reasons it's my favorite. Because they were filming at USC. Oh, perfect. I was walking to the library. And I couldn't get into the library, because they were filming in front of USC has a beautiful library. Absolutely gorgeous. Yes, they do. But I got to watch. And so a couple of my new friends. I mean, this is freshman year, I think, you know, I don't even know, I felt like it was just there. And suddenly I'm like, what, what there's filming on the campus. So we stood there, and we watched and then we talked to somebody Hi, what did you What are you doing there? You know, and then we got to we met the cinematographer, the DP, that the sound guy, the sound guy turned out to be a guy named fast. Eddie Mahler. He's credited as Fast Eddie Mahler, fantastic. He worked on a ton of 80s. Television, he was also one of the sound recorders for Close Encounters of the Third Kind. But he let us sit stand by his sound card, which is a safe place to stand on a set, because you're not going to be in the shot. That's right. And then they have headsets and they have headsets and you can listen to the take. And he was very nice. He was like, if you want to come to the Steadicam, we shoot in these makeshift stages that used to be warehouses in Culver City. And I was like, why? Yes, sir. I would love to come. So I called him up. And I went over one other afternoon, and took the bus didn't have a car. So I took the bus from USC to Culver City to ride, it's a ride. And he was doing more Hardcastle. McCormack that day, but they wrapped early. And he was like, you you like the ATM, right? And I was like, yes. He's like, hold on a second. Let me see because I think they're shooting across the way. And so they called over. And I got got to walk over to the set of the A Team, which I was a huge fan of. That's perfect. And he said, it'll be okay. Because they're just shooting some pickups.

Wasn't the full cast. It wasn't the full cast. It

was Dirk Benedict. And it wasn't Mr. T or George Park. They were doing a scene with with basically Dirk Benedict in a bar waiting for something, you know, talking to somebody, you know, and they were shooting it because they needed to add, you know, three minutes to the shift fee. There you go. You didn't time it out right now. Things happen. You cut it short, didn't come out as long as you thought it was. But you think of it like that was that's tough. That's tough to hit that 48 minute mark? Well,

especially because of the way they wrote the scripts for for Moonlighting. And that I'm sure it was hard to time it because you couldn't use the usual method, which is page count, which typically gives you a better sense of how much how long it's going to be. And because of the amount of dialogue in Moonlighting, they there, they just probably just didn't have much of an idea of where

any overlapping, yes, a ton of overlapping dialogue between those two,

but it was very exciting to be honest. And Dirk Benedict was very nice to me. And I was very much in a huge crush on third

course from the Cylon days. What was Starbuck?

Yes, he was Battlestar Galactica is the OG the OG Starbuck. That was a very exciting time. Britney and I would later go return to the set of the A Team when they were shooting down in Orange County in their last Season. And while the first time I went to visit the team, it was an early Season and everyone was happy. Yeah.

By the end, not so happy. There was a very

unhappy set. George Picard tried to have us thrown off the set. Nah, we're standing by the cart. And apparently George didn’t like it. We said nothing to know. But yeah, just there as guests of he just pissed off. And so the ad came to sit in his way. And we're like, oh, yeah, so sorry. When we were We apologize. We apologize. And then he came back from wherever he was. And he was like, no, they're not leaving. They're my guests. He was like, That's ridiculous. He has no right. Oh, that's true. And he said no. And we stayed he told us to stay yesterday told us to stay. But I felt very bad. The whole time. It was very tense. Yeah, it was very, very tense. Did that did not enjoy that set? Is

it another side of show business?

Oh, that was a sidebar wasn't a

good one. No.

But it was it was a very interesting lesson about them. Oh, they had to jump in and shoot the scene and throw it in. But Moonlighting did it in a way in their first Episode back that basically, I think, also announced, guess what? We're not on the rails anymore.

And they they did it again. I'm sure there are many times they did. But they did it again, in another really good Season two Episode called T’was the Episode before Christmas, though this is this one. ended with a fourth wall breaking serenade of the audience with the entire crew singing a christmas carol, David, Maddie and the rest of the gang walk out of the set, the office set. And then there's the entire crew. There's, you know, they walk towards them. And they just show them all saying it's fake snow is falling, and their kids are with them and probably significant others just singing away. It was great. Yeah, that's fine.

It's very sweet. And it's very unexpected. Like it literally they they're doing a scene and then suddenly they're walking off the sound. And you're like, wait, and people are singing carols, and it's and it's good portion, then they sing the whole care, like, three,

That was a really short Episode some time,

but it also showcases how many people right we're working on that show. And you knew sort of really, I again, there wasn't anybody showing us how television was made. As somebody or you know, if you weren't in Los Angeles, and you didn't have a bookstore that might carry the two books written about how television got made. There wasn't a way to figure out how things got made. Star Wars I think was one of the films that that inspired a lot of people to go to film school and inspired me to go to film school mostly because of all the behind the scenes. It was the first time that that they made a big deal that this movie was made, that it took all these people behind the scenes to do it handing little tiny chips and shooting these Deathstar that was the size of a beach ball and not the Death Star. But also like, oh, somebody wrote this, somebody direct this. And when you pan over from that Moonlighting and see how many people are making that show happen. There were people that were like, I want to do that. I have no doubt, because that's what happened to me. That can be a job. You can do that. Let's go. You can make stuff for a living. I think that's one of the reasons that Moonlighting was so loved in the industry.

And you know, this Episode also gives Allyce Beasley's Agnes DiPesto more to do than stand and say rhymes into the phone when people call because she's the one that finds a baby. And she's front and center as this this whole Episode goes along. Yeah.

I also really liked Maddie and Mr. pesters relationship. Agnes is relationship throughout the show, by the end of that show their friends, and in many ways somewhat equal.

And I don't remember even from the beginning, Maddie treating Agnes with anything but respect, correct? Yeah, absolutely. And she could have been snooty about it or, you know, been like, Oh, she's part of the clown show. But that wasn't the case. And I think that was I think that was great to see. I

liked the MIFARE. David, that's Episode five of Season two. It comes right after the dream sequence Always Rings Twice, which is just obvious. It's it's so on the list. It's kind of its own list. But of course, it's one of the best episodes for so many reasons. But my friend David is fun because it is Maddie and David making a bet that he can't act like a mature adult. And if he loses, it's the first time they talked about the employee, he must fire two employees.

39:39
And if she loses, she's got a limbo right in front of the staff. And David loses the bat, which is the right thing to do. But then Manny lets them off the hook and they don't fire those two employees even though they have no cases and they're constantly broke.

Somehow they make payroll pay Aren't late because are these people are working for free

I Season two is the Season where this show is the most Moonlighting it will ever be the lady in the iron mask has the goofiness of basically a bunch of people dressed up as a woman in a black veil running after each other two of which are men like it's just insane. For kind of no. So I think that's the moment where a basically we're just going to end these cases with chaotic madness. You know, whether it's a chase scene, whether we're going to throw pillows in various faces. It's like we're never going to really take the ensuing climax of the show seriously, as you would in other shows. That was one of my favorites. Okay, this is a probably a good time to take a break. We'll be back. Already, and we're back. We hit the candy. Yeah, yeah, that's me.

Well, Melissa didn't bring any to share my tag.

Sugar back into the candy buffer my kitchen can

what you have Melissa

and Almond Joy.

Almond Joy has nuts. Mounds don't to encourage you.

41:24
Sometimes you don't.

And a snicker snacker.

You know, we should do an Episode about them as commercials.

Oh my god, I can think too many.

All right, I see I see an Episode ahead for us. Maybe we should make that a crossover. One of the other ad shows.

That would be fun.

That would be fun. Okay.

Are we ready for Season three?

We are ready. Except for everyone. I shout out Dennis Christopher in the lady in the iron mask. Who is from breaking away? And who is also from the last room? Which my husband executive produced then he's a awesome actor person. Alright, so yes, let's go to Season three. Well,

my all time favorite Episode is from Season three. And it's big man on Mulberry Street. I adore this Episode. Probably mostly because of the dance sequence I which I just absolutely adore. I had no idea that Bruce Willis could dance. I knew it was a singer.

He can't really I mean, if you look hard, well, it's fine. He does a very good job of he

was standing place. Yes, he was. He was so good. In this one. And I just I just love I just love that Episode.

It is a beautiful Episode. And I love that Stanley down and directed it as like, I love this Episode too. Because I love musicals. I love dance and music. I made a dance music film, music video in film school. And I love Billy Joel. And we love Billy Joel. And this was Billy Joel at the height of belly Jonas. Yeah, so that one is just beautiful and gorgeous. And everybody looks gorgeous in it. That one is a great, great one. It's a great Episode. You know, anytime there's a musical number I'm in, for the most part. It's followed by atomic Shakespeare, which everyone loves. And it gets noted in all the top 10 episodes of Moonlighting lists. It's not one of my favorite, really, and I think that's a little sacrilegious to say, because it's super creative. I totally love that super creative. You know, the challenge of basing anything on Kiss Me, Kate. I mean that gets Taming of the Shrew. Well,

I pick up Kiss Me, Kate first I do two musicals Kiss Me,

Kate, we just based on Taming of the Shrew, which is also 10 Things I Hate About You, which is also so many adaptations of, you know, a guy basically being paid to court. A woman who is a shrew, or some sort of horrible creature, as a mind of her own pace has a mind of her own, but it's considered horrible in the context of everybody else's world in society. And then they truly fall in love. It's not one of my favorite Shakespeare. I love performances of it. I love you know, I love male female dynamics. You know, I love that stuff. But this one in particular, I was just like, Okay, I mean, I appreciate it. I appreciate it. That was huge out of the box. I know people love it. It just sort of it's weirdly one of the top 10 episodes that doesn't work for me.

I love it. I am in the Lovett camp with this Episode. Partially I think because I do love Kiss Me, Kate, the musical. Yes. And it reminded me very much of that with some little tweaks here and there, which were appreciated. And I just like the whole idea of it, that they took this TV show and basically did Shakespeare for an hour. I mean to a large extent Shakespeare type of Have no show for an hour. Who does that? For goodness sake? Well,

not only that, but they immediately break the fourth wall by having some kid who gets sent to do his Shakespeare homework, and can't watch Moonlighting. So it reminds me of one of my favorite books and movies, The Princess Bride, and the framework of the storytelling that's, that's in the book and the movie, but oh, it

was the day of probably one TV in the house. That's true. So the chances are, depending on on how late the kid gets to stay up, they might have been sitting in front of the TV there might have been more suited for the TV than you then maybe would be today. But

it is the challenge of if you had homework to do, you could not watch television if we could not watch television before homework was done. And the challenge was, it wasn't 24 hour, seven days. 57 streaming channels it was if you missed it. Last it was Moonlighting. You had to wait to summer. You could probably catch it the following week. Anyway, it is very clever. I love you know, the iambic pentameter. I love the play that there's so much wordplay that's really quite wonderful. I love the visual gags you know, when she's throwing all the vases and she's got her vase throwing shelf. So there's really great stuff. It's fun, because it's also a nod to their relationship in a unique way throughout the Episode. But just for me, I'm like, Yeah, you know, that sort of, we're doing Shakespeare in a wacky way. It's just not my kind of Shakespeare. It's really the Shakespeare of it all. Oh, interesting. Anything else?

Well, you know, everything's, everything's not everybody's favorite. It's true.

And I love some Shakespeare, but that style of Shakespeare is not my favorite.

You know, as I'm thinking about it. I don't think I've ever seen Shakespeare performed on stage. It's only been through the movies.

You didn't come see my show.

No, I did not.

Oh, do I just set to say it is the best Shakespeare ever. I've seen performed on stage was the only thing that I like actually understood what was going on. You know what you've not seen? You've not seen it? You've not gone to the Shakespeare delays of their friends. Yeah. And you're like, what's going on? I don't know what they're saying. But no huge fan of Appalachian tough night.

It was a real mad really show race adapted by Robert Williams. And produced by Robert and Shawn. And they asked me to direct it. And it was the it was the show that got me back into theater. That's funny. I was trying to make everybody I knew go to it. I must have missed you know, it's

it's one of the many gaps in my, you know,

listen, I would not have gotten myself if I hadn't directed that point in my life. But then, of course, I produced a Shakespeare album, and then I've produced Macbeth. All right, but yes, it is one of the most famous episodes. And you know what, you're right. There's some really classic Moonlighting episodes in Season three. Season two is where it finds itself. It truly is the training wheels are off. But then of course, Season three, Episode nine, the straight poop, I love. And also this is the Season that introduces Curtis Armstrong. And he starts to be a lovely he and Agnes get getting a lot more to do in this Season. But the straight poop was pretty brilliant. And doing a clip show in a really clever way. And sort of again, breaking the fourth wall in an insane way that you just didn't see it just didn't occur to anybody that you could do that with television. Are you a fan of the Christmas Episode here? Season Three, Episode Eight. It's a wonderful job.

I don't think on this, rewatch that I watched it. Yeah, it's

it's sort of a take on it's a wonderful, except that Maddie is having a bad day. And things are going wrong. So she blows up at the agency, you know, at everybody and then goes to a bar and is drinking in a bar and wishes. She basically said I'm wish I never, you know, stayed with this agency. And then a guardian angel basically says, Okay, I've made that happen.

You know, it actually is one that I did watch, but it didn't stick with me. Which means that I'm sure I liked it well enough, but there are others that kind of more

stuck. Yeah, but one thing that I'm struggling with is that without the agency, she's like a sad person. And everyone else is doing great. It's sort of a little bit of an opposite of its wonderful life where you He doesn't exist. And it's a wonderful life, but everybody else is doing kind of sad because of it. The town is doing sad. And you know, and in this case, everyone's doing great.

Except Maddie is so despondent and you're like, Okay, I don't buy it. She's Maddie Hayes. She's pretty good at a lot of things. She's proven herself. And she's gorgeous. So she might have a sad life, but it's not going to be a miserable existence life. Because that's not that character. So I felt that was not fair. That Episode was not fair to the character or accurate to the character of Maddie Hayes, even though it's a fantasy Episode.

And so all these things, I still think you have to play by the rules of your character, right. But it does have a great gag for 80s television fans, in that she goes to the Blue Moon detective agency to speak once you just like but it's still there, right? Like should you should go check. I gotta go back to the agency. And she goes to the Blue Moon detective agency Only it's not the Blue Moon detective agency. It's Hart to Hart’s agency. They've opened an office there. And I thought that was a great gag. You don't see the hearts. Right, right.

You see Max, you see Max is there. That's the name.

And Bruce Willis is married to Cheryl Tiegs.

I watched this Episode. Why don't I remember it? Hmm. Interesting. Lionel Stander.

Max? Yes. So I was like, that's a great gag. I love that part of this. And I don't mind everyone doing well.

It sounds like maybe that what they were trying to do is not do what it's for life did which is everybody else's miserable. Yeah.

And then we start getting into SAM. SAM comes into Season three.

51:53
The absolutely gorgeous Mark Harmon at the height of his gorgeousness. And being a third to break up Maddie and David a little bit. But the show starts to go in crazy directions. At that point, right.

Wow. Sharon's, not even

gonna talk about it. Yeah, no, crazy is crazy does and there's kind of reasons for some of it.

52:17
I love Mark Harmon and love. Okay, now she's with this person. And that person. There's a moment where she runs back to David and goes into his house. And it's empty of furniture, which is so interesting. Such an interesting character thing and you're like, Okay, I totally buy that. It's, it's extreme, but I see it. And it's that I can't count on you to be an adult. And that's clearly proves it, even though I'm attracted to you. And I have an astronaut.

And so that sort of wraps up Season three, those three episodes kind of or four episodes. But then she doesn't want him. Now that's fine. I'm fine with the perfect man on paper comes in and is perfect, but is really actually not right. And then Season for Sharon's looking at me, well, you should see it. It's not…

I just have to admit, I watched just view Season four and Season five episodes, because it just really got messier and messier as time went on. For this

Season, Glenn Gordon Caron had gone off to direct a film, like basically left the show. Because I didn't want him to come back. But

Season Four is when Bruce Willis went off to make Die Hard and Cybill Shepherd was pregnant with twins. And there were many episodes where they had to shoot them creatively to get them in scenes together. And

yeah, I think by this point, they are literally not on set at the same time. Yeah, 90% of the time.

And knowing that I couldn't not see it. If I hadn't known it, I think they handled it pretty well. But now that I know that that's all I could see, when I'm watching the episodes when ostensibly they're going to be in the room together. Season Four was was was hard to watch.

In television lore, they talk about if you've had the will they won't they and then they do. Can you come back from that? Can you continue to have the same dynamic or a better dynamic? Or is it the death toll of the show?

Well, it's interesting because I out of all shows, I think shears did it better than anybody. Yeah, they got them together. They broke them up. And that basically was all she wrote because they really didn't belong together. I can't think of another show that did it until that? Well, there might be one or two,

are some people that go, this was the end of the show they slept together, it became uninteresting to fans. I think that's not necessarily has to happen. No, not at all. But I think the the challenge of Season four is they're just not together. They're literally episodes where they're not in the same city. Right. So because she flies away, you know, so a significant number of the episodes, they never have scenes together. And so that, I think, is a real challenge when that is the engine of the show, right? It is the engine of the show,

and had really become the engine of the show, as the first three seasons came along. And they spent less time on the case of the week and more time on whatever was going on, between them around them. And now suddenly, the two actors are not able to be in the same place at the same time. And so they have to write all these stories that inexplicably and not very satisfyingly have them apart. Yeah,

I mean, listen, they're real things. Having twins. I don't even know how you do that and continue to do anything other than have twins, you know, and he did die hard. That's insane. Oh, yeah. That those are two huge life changing things. But I do think that we don't appreciate how much pregnancy and birth and child bearing. Yeah, and rearing takes time, and energy and effort. It's like a production. And guess what, it's hard to do two productions at the same time, and do them well. That's why when you have series, you have to put one in first position. If you have multiple series, you literally have one in first position all the time, all the time. And I'm going to say it your children. Alright, Season Four and Season five. They're kind of a write off. There's some there's some highlight scenes. There's some incredible scenes in the fourth and fifth Season. Is there an Episode? Not that I found, I will shout out the last Episode just because of the way it ends. Because once again, it does a really like there's an extended, breaking the fourth wall where they're literally breaking down the walls around them, and breaking down the set. And they're telling them they're canceled. And characters are dying, Walker and scenes. And and then they tried to, to run away from that ending. I think so much of this show was a little bit of jazz. And sometimes jazz isn't as good when you're making it up on the spot as when you plan it out. I think that this show just really does survive better than I thought it was going to.

Same. When it was good. It was phenomenal. And the creativity and the chances that they took and just the way that they just made the wrong rules for storytelling. It just I haven't seen anything quite like it before, since you had the sense that you just really had no idea what you were in for. Every time you turned on the TV, I would imagine each week. What the heck are they going to do this week? Yeah,

it was big swings. Yeah, I think it is definitely one of those shows, that then broke enough ground for what was allowed on television in a creative way. And that is worth a lot. I

would imagine that shows that do try to do some of the things and try to step outside of the box that their show may be in. Oh, their ability to do that, as you said consciously or subconsciously to Moonlighting because Moonlighting made it cool and made it okay to try something.

It was so cool. Yeah, it was so cool. When that show was hidden. It was the coolest show television had seen in decades. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And every show wanted to be that cool. All right. Well, there you go. Moonlighting. From the point of view of Sharon and Susan. All right, listeners. Dear listeners, tell us your favorite Moonlighting episodes.

We'd also love your thoughts on which ones you think we absolutely should check out just in case it's one that we missed. We're always interested in hearing what you think.

Go to 80s tv ladies.com and let us know. All right. When take us out

Sharon Johnson 1:00:00
We hope 80s TV Ladies brings you joy and laughter and lots of fabulous new and old shows to watch, all of which will lead us forward toward being amazing ladies of the 21st century.
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Episode 230 ENCORE: "Revisit Cagney & Lacey with Sharon Gless"

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