Episode 102: “Scarecrow and Ms. Jackson (If You’re Nasty!)”

But really: How much fun is it to be a spy and a mom? In this episode, Susan and Sharon continue their conversation about the TV show “Scarecrow & Mrs. King'', focusing on how Amanda balanced her home life with her new (secret!) career as a spy and how her desire to embrace this new career drives the Season One episodes.
Read Transcript

The Conversation

  • Kate Jackson’s “reputation” on set: What was it? And was it true?
  • The barely there, but surprisingly diverse group of featured and background agents at the IFF.
  • The plot twists and tropes of detective/spy stories: mistaken identity, memory loss and look-alikes!
  • The mid-season hand-off of showrunner duties from creators Eugenie Ross-Lemming & Brad Buckner to TV veteran Juanita Bartlett – and how it changed the show.
  • A dangerous – and romantic – Christmas Eve that Lee and Amanda share in a cozy mountain cabin with two Russian spies… and a bottle of vodka!


Susan and Sharon also welcome special guest Richard Hatem – Susan’s husband and TV Writer/Producer on such shows as “Grimm” and “Titans” – to discuss injuries on set, the challenges of producing network television, and how women are treated behind-the-scenes both then – and now.


So join us as we go undercover, lose our memory, meet our evil twins, get nasty with Ms. Jackson – and learn how to slide into home base without tearing a ligament!

Our Audio-ography

Where the Girls Are: Growing Up Female With the Mass Media by Susan J. Douglas - https://www.amazon.com/Where-Girls-Are-Growing-Female/dp/0812925300


Chance Encounters - Fan site. Fan fiction. Fan music videos.  https://chanceencounters.weebly.com/

Just Walk With Me - A blog journey through 88 episodes of Scarecrow and Mrs. King. Adorable and hilarious. https://justwalkwithme.com/


Richard Hatem - https://twitter.com/RichardHatem

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80s TV Ladies™ Episode 102 - “Scarecrow and Ms. Jackson, if you’re Nasty”
Produced by 134 West and Susan Lambert Hatem.
Hosted by Susan Lambert Hatem and Sharon Johnson.
Guest: Richard Hatem.
Sound Engineer and Editor: Kevin Ducey.
Producer: Melissa Roth.
Associate Producers: Megan McKiernan, Sergio Perez.
Music by Amy Engelhardt.
Copyright 2022 134 West, LLC and Susan Lambert. All Rights Reserved.



80s TV Ladies.  I’m so sexy and so pretty.

80s TV Ladies. I’m steppin out into the city.

80s TV Ladies.  I been treated kind of sh#*ty.  

Working hard for the money in a man’s world.

Sharon Johnson  00:16

Hi, everyone. Welcome to 80s TV Ladies, the podcast that looks at female driven TV shows from the 1980s. I'm Sharon Johnson.

Susan Lambert Hatem  00:25

And I'm Susan Lambert Hatem. We're your hosts today, talking about ladies of the 80s television style.

Sharon Johnson  00:32

Now last time we just started our dive into the action comedy show Scarecrow and Mrs. King, starring Kate Jackson and Bruce Boxleitner. Today, we're going to continue our examination of this 80s Female driven show.

Susan Lambert Hatem  00:45

So welcome to Season One, Episode Two of 80s TV Ladies, or as I like to refer to this episode, "Miss Jackson if you're nasty". We're going to be looking at the first season of four seasons. This season ran from October 3, 1983 to May 7, 1984.

Sharon Johnson  01:06

The show is about a divorced mother of two, who is unexpectedly drafted into working for a government agency and becomes a spy.

Susan Lambert Hatem  01:15

Today we're going to look at a couple of key episodes in season one that I think stand out for a few reasons. And talk a little bit about the change in showrunners that happened mid season. A little bit unusual for a television show, though not unheard of. But we're also going to look at an injury on set and it affected a couple of episodes that came after.

Sharon Johnson  01:34

But before we get into all of that, a little housekeeping. If you want to find out more about us or the TV shows we're talking about, go to our website at 80sTV ladies.com.

Sharon Johnson  01:45

You can check out episodes. Let us know what your favorite ladies of the 80s television shows are. And let us know what you think we should be talking about.

Sharon Johnson  01:54

Like...What determines an 80s TV lady show? Let's get into it.

Susan Lambert Hatem  01:58

Let's do it.

song  01:59

Oh, it's fun to be a mom and it's fun to be a spy. It's fun to be a spy and a mom. It's fun to be a mom and it's fun to be a spy. It's fun to be a spy and a mom!

Susan Lambert Hatem  02:09

In this season, Kate Jackson got injured. She apparently tore all the ligaments in her ankle.

Susan Lambert Hatem  02:15


Susan Lambert Hatem  02:16

Jumping down some stairs. Now I haven't been able to determine what part, I was sort of looking closely at some of those early episodes. We know that in Episode Six. The episode we're going to talk about today, Kate Jackson is wearing a big boot on her leg. So my guess is that Episode Five is when she injured it and they probably had to shoot around her. So I think there is a lot of the next few episodes, in those early, in the early part of the season, where there's a lot of Kate Jackson sitting on a desk. Kate Jackson driving in a car.

Sharon Johnson  02:49

I can only imagine how difficult it must have been for production in, for a show that was still kind of finding its way as new shows. It takes a while to kind of really get in a rhythm and everything, and to have one of your leads be injured in that way, and their mobility be hampered in that way, and and. All the difficulties that that must have caused

Susan Lambert Hatem  03:09

Well, and it's not just a drama so it's it is an... Action was a big part of the of the season. One of the most fun parts of the season, I thought. I thought the stunts in Season One and Season Two are pretty, pretty strong. So in Episode Six, which is also called, "Always Look a Gift Horse in the Mouth", I'm going to synopsize this for us. So Amanda, must befriend Princess Penny, a US citizen who's married to a prince from a foreign country. And their lives are threatened when they visit the United States. So Lee and Amanda have to protect them. And somehow they end up on a ranch, and they're on a horse, and all of this with apparently, Kate Jackson in a boot. So most of it's her stunt woman on a horse I think. But what I did find really great is, there's this moment where Kate Jackson as Amanda King has to be at the fancy party with the Prince and Princess, and she's in her nice dress. But she's got this big old awkward boot on her leg and they sort of write it off as she injured it teaching the boys, her boys, how to slide into you know, home base. To me, it is very much sort of in character. Right? Because she's still very awkward. She's still a housewife who's not used to this sort of highfalutin spy world. And so she feels very awkward. And that in itself, itself is a physical embodiment of her awkwardness. And so I actually thought it really worked for the show.

Sharon Johnson  04:40

I give credit to the writers for that, for coming up with a reason for it, that was very much in character. It's not always easy to work something like that into a show, and I think they did a good job with it. And I don't know that they really spent a lot of time sort of mentioning it beyond that. Perhaps they had to do it in the show because they were so far into production for it and they had no choice. They couldn't find another way around, to try to figure out, or how to shoot this thing without letting you see that she had this big boot thing on her, on her foot. So, I give her credit to for soldiering on. I mean, she must have been in a lot of pain. I've never torn ligaments in my ankle, but it sounds really painful.

Susan Lambert Hatem  05:20

I don't know if we'll ever get to talk to her. But she really, you know, kind of had her pick coming off of Charlie's Angels, of what she was going to do. And so I think she was looking for a half hour comedy... is what I've read. But then came across the script, and I think was really charmed by the script and by the sort of romantic, action spy-detective-duo. Is sort of something again, you see it every once in a while, I think the "Mr. Mrs. Smith" like wasn't there that movie. But the action comedy and television how has really gone by the wayside. And and I kind of miss it. I kind of also miss the buddy comedy, and even the romantic comedy. I'm a big Dashiell Hammett fan who wrote not only the Maltese Falcon, but he also wrote "The Thin Man" series. And that was a husband and wife, getting drunk and solving crimes, (laughs) and having a grand old time. The other thing that I liked about this episode is they had a guest star, Jane Kaczmarek, who would go on to have a very long and successful TV and film career. Still does. She's most notably known now, I think, as being Malcolm's mom, from "Malcolm in the Middle", Lois. And in 1983, she starred not only in a Scarecrow and Mrs. King, but also a Remington Steele episode. And she did like a three show arc on "St. Elsewhere". So I thought that was cool. It's always nice when you're like, oh, wait, look, that's her. That's... uh... who's that?

Sharon Johnson  06:54

That's one of the fun things about this show the, "hey, it's that guy, or hey, it's that woman" that that comes up as you as you watch the show somebody then who, like Jane was just maybe starting their career, but now is much more well known. It's kind of fun.

Susan Lambert Hatem  07:10

Yeah, I love that. I mean, they you see that a lot in a lot of the 80s. And they just, it's amazing how many times they actually use the same actor to play different characters on on the same show. Which is sort of weird. Like, you'd never be able to do that now. And also just how many character actors you saw, and that were just in everything. So the other, one of the other guest actors in the show is Richard Narita, who is a Japanese American actor, who is, you know, in so many shows from the 70s and 80s. What's notable for me is he actually played an agent. He played IFF, Agent, Dane. And he's actually in two episodes. So when those happened, you know, I was really sort of hoping they'd keep bringing back and really identify other agents in the agency besides the core group of Francine and Lee and Amanda. They don't. But it was it was interesting to note for me that it was again, one of the few agents of color in the show. So I appreciated that oh, there was one other thing I had to say about Richard Narita because again, this was what I was saying, like these, these character actors would basically just be in everything. Right?! They'd get cast in one show and then another show and then another show. And so in that same time period, right before he did this, this, these two episodes of Scarecrow and Mrs. King, he actually was in two shows that were on the year before Scarecrow and Mrs. King, The Tails of the Gold Monkey, and its counterpart called Bring 'Em Back Alive. But that Bring 'Em Back Alive show starred, yes, Bruce Boxleitner. I think Richard Narita went on to do a couple of Magnum PI's, and and again, just just... he's got a list of of credits,

Sharon Johnson  09:03

There's a lot more of that cross pollination, if you will, going on then then maybe there is now I think.  Or maybe it's just because there were fewer networks. There, it's easier to see that they, the the work that character actors like that are doing when... because now it's impossible to see everything. So.

Susan Lambert Hatem  09:21

Yeah, but I don't think like, I think I think you're right, it's really hard to do that. I think now, you really want to get yourself on a show and stay there if you're an actor. So again, those were my notable thoughts about that episode. The other thing is it was written by Peter Lefcourt who wrote a lot of 70s and 80s shows and wrote a lot of Scarecrow. He he wrote two of the episodes we're talking about today.

Sharon Johnson  09:47

Well, as it happens, he also wrote the episode that's one of my favorites from that season. It's episode 13. It's called, "I Am Not Nor Have I Ever Been a Spy". And in this episode, Amanda has partial memory loss, and doesn't remember working for the IFF. She and Lee go to a hotdog stand to pick up a note from a source. It's a drop that he's used for a long time with this source. But unbeknownst to them, there's some terrorists who have sort of figured it out. and And are waiting to intercept the note when Scarecrow picks it up. They don't know whether Scarecrow is a man or woman. They just know that this person is coming. So when she picks up the order, due to circumstances, they grab her, throw in their car, and off they go. I mean, Lee tries to chase them down but but isn't able to. And then when they're interrogating her, it was when she utters the famous line that is the title of this episode. And she manages to escape. And in doing so, hops into the car that they stole, that they use to kidnap her. And gets in a crash which causes her to lose her memory. So the rest of the show is her memory kind of slowly, piecemeal, coming back so they can try to figure out what happened, or what it is these guys were up to, and try to try to stop them. And as I think about it, too, I realize how little, let's say, walking around she did? Despite the fact that she was kidnapped. She did a lot of sitting in chairs, laying in hospital beds, that kind of thing. So clearly, I would imagine she was still suffering from her injury at that point, too. But you would not have known if you didn't know.

Susan Lambert Hatem  11:21

Yeah, the only time you see the boot is is in that that one episode, and I think it definitely stayed with her. That's not an injury you get over very quickly. But I also liked that episode, because it's very, it's very funny. I mean, it is once again, Amanda in the wrong place, (giggle) at the right time. And what I love about the show is is all the spy stuff. Right!? It is, this season is mistaken ident... Like, she's mistaken for Scarecrow several times this season. And also there's a lot of twins in this season. There's a lot of Francine looks like a Hungarian refugee in one episode, and and... There's an episode where someone turns themselves into look just like Amanda so that they can betray... Amanda can betray Lee and, and... He has to figure out there's two Amanda's. One good and one evil. And (laughs) which is that like fun, you know, kind of very, this this season's very goofy. But it really does rely upon the charm of them. And I think there's a lot of charm in that moment where he's really very upset that she doesn't remember him... and, and doesn't remember that she's been involved with him in the spy game for you know what? 12 episodes that point?

Sharon Johnson  11:21

And I also there's, and also in this episode, there's still the, let's call it subplot, of her boyfriend Dean. She was supposed to have lunch with his mother that day, and of course, getting kidnapped and losing her memory. She missed it. The Dean we never really see. And I think at some point, he just sort of disappears from the scene, but... And rightly so. But at this point, there was still this attempt by the show to sort, to separate her life Before she met Scarecrow, from her life After. And her mother never quite figures out in the show that she was a spy, or is a spy. But she was still trying to maintain this sort of bifurcation of her life. And in terms of her romantic life, at least at that point.

Susan Lambert Hatem  13:23

Yes, the double life. It is sort of that the secret, and it, I mean... I joke that, you know, in this show, it's all about how much fun it is to be a spy and a mom. And because they, I think they were pretty successful season one with doing that balance.  Like she is trying to balance, you know, a hectic home life, and personal life with this new career. And I think that's one of the things that really struck me, again, watching it, you know, as a much younger person. And again, more seeing my mom in that character than than myself. But definitely seeing that balance of, oh, I want to do something important in the world. But I also want to have my family and my family is important too. And there's a lot of back and forth on that in this season. And in that episode, because she's, she can't believe that she would be doing that. And she's got this home life that, you know, is what she truly wants to do sort of, maybe, kind of.

Sharon Johnson  14:29

Well, I think she she at this point is still trying to figure out, you know, she's got this exciting new career that fell into her lap literally. Plus she had this life that she had before that I think she was fairly satisfied with and now she's trying to figure out how to how to make those two things mesh. And, and it's something I think that that we all have to do in our lives and and it's certainly a bigger issue in some career choices as others and and imagine trying to be a spy it would be really, really hard! So I I like that aspect of this of this episode as well.

Susan Lambert Hatem  15:02

You know, and so they play with this is she going to stay in this job and it's clearly a job that she is enjoying, and that she is liking and, and choosing. And so that's why I think it really is. This is a show very much driven by Mrs. King's choices. This is a, this is a female driven show and there weren't a lot of those. And she, you know, it definitely becomes about her and Scarecrow and her and Lee Stetson. But it's really because she is saying no, I'm gonna keep showing up and keep doing this. And and so one of my favorite episodes is episode 10. If we jump back to it, also written by Peter Lefcourt. Peter Lefcourt wrote not only on Scarecrow and Mrs. King and several episodes, obviously. The whole that we're talking about. He also wrote on Cagney and Lacey, Eight is Enough, and even wrote into this time of Desperate Housewives. So he wrote a lot of television and movies. He's gone on to write novels. And one of the people that we'll try to track down and see if we can talk to talk to him. Episode 10 of Season One, it's about a burnt out double agent who knows too many secrets who's offering to turn himself in to the US in order to to the IFF agency. But he'll only do it if If the agency finds his long lost daughter. And it's Christmas Eve, and they can't find her. And they're running out of time. So of course, they come up with a brilliant idea that Amanda is the perfect person to play the long lost daughter, in order to convince him to sort of come and kind of get relocated for for good in the US and tell all his secrets and keep all the US secrets he knows. So Lee and Amanda have to hike to the remote cabin where he's hiding. And, and, and Lee promises that she'll be back by four in time to do Christmas Eve with her kids. But meanwhile, the KGB who doesn't want this guy to give up all his secrets, has sent two killers to take out the guy. And then Lee gets shot. And Amanda has to save the day. And she does it by being, by sort of leaning into, I'm going to be a decent human being. So a Lee gets shot and one of the KGB guys get shot. And so she actually finally decides that the only way to help them is to go and get the first aid kit that's back at the car. And, and it's cold. And it's Christmas Eve. And so she walks out and then basically is like, she sure she's gonna get shot by the surviving KGB guy, but she basically pleads with him by being a decent human being and talking about her kids and her family and how she just wants to go get the first aid kit and come back. And if if the two KGB officers want to wait in the cabin, then they can all get the first aid kit and all be okay for a minute and sort of have a little detente. And it works! And so then she ends up spending Christmas Eve in a cabin with three agents and some vodka! And (laughs), and sort of cracks the hardened hearts of all the agents. And they actually have this lovely Christmas Eve moment. And so she doesn't make it home in time for Christmas Eve, but she does make it back to her couch in time for Christmas morning with her kids. So that that to me is a very, it's a very like in some ways a "bottle episode" like pretty much all takes place at the cabin. But it's a very successful for me, episode because I think they're both very charming in that episode and and it plays to here's how a housewife with her hiking skills from scouting and, and her human skills from, Hey, maybe we don't all have to be on opposing sides all the time... Works. A bit of a fantasy, but I like that.

Sharon Johnson  19:07

Well, if we, you know, if we wanted realism, we could watch the news. Where we're hoping to be entertained by watching the TV show and and I think the show certainly does that, this episode as well. It's very, it's very, it's a very good episode. I agree.

Susan Lambert Hatem  19:22

Yeah, so those those are sort of my, some of my favorites and then... But then the big thing was happening in the show, sometime around episode 12 and 13. Eugenie Ross Lemming and Brad Bruckner, who created the show and ran the show clearly are asked to step down? I'm assuming. Or they leave the show themselves. Because a new showrunner comes on, Juanita Bartlett. This was a show where I recognized, in watching it, when I was first watching it... The fact that there was a female showrunner really stood out to me, and I didn't notice that truly, until the Juanita Bartlett side of the seat, of the series. And I'm not sure if it was because it was Eugenia Ross Lemming and Brad Buckner? And those names were sort of, kind of thrown together and really long, long. And I just read Brad Buckner, you know, and, and it wasn't until it was just the name Juanita Bartlett. Or if it's just Juanita Bartlett's kind of a beautiful, lovely, interesting name. And so, but I distinctly remember watching the show, and suddenly around the middle of the season, going, Wait. This is run by a woman! I was just starting to pay attention to who wrote and directed these things... To who made the shows. And and I sort of ended up becoming a big fan of Juanita Bartlett. And I don't think she gets enough attention as an early female showrunner. But also just as a, as a writer and TV writer. She had an amazing career and you don't hear about it that much. She was a brilliant writer and producer. She really started early on, she started on Nichols, James Garner show. And started as an assistant, as as James Garner secretary. But she basically went to the producer of Nichols, and, you know, and pitched an idea for the show. And he was like, Okay, well, why don't you write it? And she did. And everybody liked it. And so she, you know, it really kind of shifted. I mean, she really was interested in writing television, and pursued a time that there weren't a lot of that, and then pursued at a very high level because she went on to basically be a significant writer, and producer on the Rockford Files. She went on to write for Greatest American Hero. She wrote a lot with Cannell, Stephen J Cannell. So she worked on Tenspeed and Brown Shoe, and with Scarecrow and Mrs. King. She went on to produce In the Heat of the Night with Carol O'Connor and it... so she had this kind of amazing career, and then kind of disappeared. And, and no one ever heard about her. And not as much as you hear about the David Chases and obviously Stephen J Cannell, but she worked very closely with Stephen Cannell. And so, I've always sort of been really fascinated by her. My husband too, who's a big Rockford Files fan. And so one year we're in New York. So this is my Junaita Bartlett story. We ready?

Sharon Johnson  22:21

Yes. Please.

Susan Lambert Hatem  22:24

We are visiting New York. And, and and we start, we're talking about Juanita Bartlett, walking the streets of New York. And and we realize she lives in New York. And so we decided to look her up. So we basically, you know, Google Juanita Bartlett ,and basically end up finding a phone number for Juanita Bartlett. And this is 2013. Juanita Bartlett, pretty old. But we reach her. We call her and we reach her. And we basically are like, Hey, we're big fans. We're in New York. We'd love to take you to coffee or something. And we never do this. Like I've never done this. She's super lovely. She sounds pretty old. And and, and it happens at the time that we're there is this giant snowstorm in New York.(laughing) So ultimately, we're going to, we set this date and the next day, basically, we call her and she's like, I am not leaving my apartment. It is very cold and snowy out there. And we're like, we totally understand that. We're sorry. But we'll be back. And when we come back, can we call you and and do this again? And she says yes. So we leave New York, come back to LA. And we're like, okay, next time we're in New York, we're going to do this. And then Juanita Bartlett dies in 2014. And we don't get to see Juanita Bartlett and meet her. So that's our, we almost met Juanita Bartlett. And I think we would have been just real total goofballs if we had, and she probably would have thought we were crazy and a little bit stalkery.

Sharon Johnson  24:14

I have a feeling she would have loved it.

Susan Lambert Hatem  24:17

Maybe so, maybe so. So I have very fond thoughts of Juanita Bartlett, and I think that's a beautiful time to take a break. So,we'll take a little break and we'll be back to talk about more of season one.

Susan Lambert Hatem  24:33

Hello, and welcome back to 80s TV Ladies. Joining us for the second half is going to be a very special guest. We have Richard Hatem.

Richard Hatem  24:39

Okay, let's be honest, it's not that special. I just walked in from the house.

Susan Lambert Hatem  24:48

(Laughing)Okay, He is...

Richard Hatem  24:48

I've come all the way from my office, to your office.

Susan Lambert Hatem  24:51

He is also my husband, full disclosure.

Richard Hatem  24:55

And I'm honored to be here, 80s TV Ladies.

Susan Lambert Hatem  24:59

Richard, thank you. (laughing). Richard is also ...

Richard Hatem  25:00

I want the listener to know that I have endured many, many hours of 80s television with Susan. And so I feel spiritually that I too, am an 80s TV Lady.

Susan Lambert Hatem  25:16

You are spiritually an 80s TV Lady. We, this this podcast definitely started because during pandemic, Rich and I started watching, like just consuming 80s television shows like they were bags of potato chips.

Sharon Johnson  25:25


Richard Hatem  25:31

Yeah, it was, it was Hardcastle and McCormick we started with because that's Our show. Some people have a song, we have a show, and that show's Hardcastle and McCormick so, you know, send your send your thoughts and prayers.

Susan Lambert Hatem  25:44

Hey, you know what, everybody needs a show. So, but we brought Richard on because he's also a television writer and screenwriter. He wrote The Mothman Prophecies, one of my favorite movies. And, it is!  He's laughing, but it's true. It's

Richard Hatem  26:01

Look, let's cut to the chase. I'm here to discuss leg injuries on the set.

Susan Lambert Hatem  26:06

I understand, but we have to give you your credits. So he's written a lot of television. A lot, a lot, a lot of television. I'm sure he'll talk about some of them. Because one, involves an injury. And. but he's currently on HBO Max, Titans.

Richard Hatem  26:25

Yeah. I am. (Laughing)

Susan Lambert Hatem  26:27

He's working on Season Four.

Richard Hatem  26:28

I've never, for the, for those of you listening who know me, you know that I've never seen a Season Four of anything. This is, this is the first time I've been on a show longer than one season. In fact, thinking about the season of the show that I did with the leg injury. Oh, can we talk about or do you

Susan Lambert Hatem  26:46

OK so we brought him on specifically to talk about leg injuries on set because...

Richard Hatem  26:50

(Laughing) I was told I would be discussing a leg injury...

Susan Lambert Hatem  26:52

... and we were talking about...

Richard Hatem  26:53

I'm totally prepared to discuss leg injuries.

Sharon Johnson  26:53


Susan Lambert Hatem  26:56

Kate Jackson was injured on the set of Scarecrow and Mrs. King, she was the Lead! She was a producer on the show. And she was injured in Episode Five we think, of the show.

Richard Hatem  27:10

Right I remember watching that one. Do you? But do we know how she got injured?

Susan Lambert Hatem  27:13

She was, during it, apparently during the episode, I don't know if they were shooting, but she basically like kind of jumped down like two stairs. You know, she jumped downstairs, it was not a huge stunt, but it was a bit of a action. And, and, and and apparently her ankle went pop pop pop. And she tore all the ligaments in her ankle.

Richard Hatem  27:34

That sounds like Magnitude from Community (laughing)

Richard Hatem  27:37

Pop Pop!

Richard Hatem  27:40

(Laughing)Well, it's it's funny that, you know, it wasn't like, you know, jumping out of a moving car, you know, or something like that. So, in 2012 and 2013 I worked on Grimm. And when we were watching Scarecrow and Mrs. King and you know, she had her leg injury, it didn't occur to me for a while that, that had actually been a part of my experience on my episode. So this was, I wrote four episodes. This was the fourth of the four episodes, One Angry Fuchsbau, and, and I was there. So when you do, typically when you're writing for an hour long TV show, the writer of that episode will go to the set when it's being filmed, wherever that happens to be. In this case, it was Grimm, so it was Portland, Oregon. So of course Susan remembers me going away for weeks on end, actually going away for Grimm wasn't that long.

Susan Lambert Hatem  28:31

No, it was just a couple of weeks.

Richard Hatem  28:33

Yeah, yeah, the trips to Toronto for for Titans, those stretch out for what feels like months. But anyway, so I'm up there. It's, um, January February of 2013. And we're in the middle of filming. So we started filming the episode, but now it's a weekend it happens to be Super Bowl weekend. So (Akela?) was up there, Akela Cooper, because I think her episode was either coming up I guess she was prepping her episode, which was going to film next. And so a bunch of us went to a local Portland bar and watched the Super Bowl. So it was me and Akela and Silas and Claire and David and Bree. So...

Susan Lambert Hatem  29:19

He's throwing out cast members that like he's you know, on a first name basis with them.  Oh wait.  He is...

Richard Hatem  29:26

... Claire Coffee who played the (Hexan Beast?) and and Silas who played Monroe was there, and, and then, and the guy who played the Captain, Sasha, he was, but they were just coming in. So you gotta realize how fun it is, first of all, Portland were, not a lot of shows filmed in Portland. But Grimm was filming there, filmed at a lot of actual locations, and the city loved them. The cast were heroes. So you know, if you were gonna go have dinner with you know (Bitsy Talak?) or something, you didn't have to worry about making the reservation and neither did she. Because you would just show up at a restaurant and they'd be like, Bitsy, come on in, come on in. We got a table for you. I mean, it was such a, like a hometown crowd. And anyways, so we're sitting in the middle of this big sports bar at these big long tables, and everyone around recognizes the cast of Grimm from the show and from the city. And they're kind of like, you know, some of them are coming up and can you sign this and the cast is doing that anyway, it was really fun. Silas and I remember we're betting on everything, like literally betting on okay. You know, how long you know, but But you know, who's gonna win the coin toss? Okay, who's gonna score first, okay, now, like, what's the commercial gonna be? I mean, just money was flying back and forth. I have pictures of us, like literally throwing money at each other. But anyway, one person's not at the party. Russell Hornsby. Where's Russell? Russell, played Nick's partner. And, and he was he was at his own party. Okay. He was up in Portland with I think his wife was up there. And he was, you know, they were just watching the game. He's like, I don't want to, I just want to kind of keep it chill. So he's at home, watching the game. Wherever he lived. Probably they rented an apartment for him or whatever. Anyway, so he, at some point, watching the game, he jumps up off the couch and tears his Achilles tendon.

Susan Lambert Hatem  31:35

Oh, my God.

Sharon Johnson  31:38

It's always something so innocuous like that. No, not rescuing a child from you know, burning building or something. No, no.

Susan Lambert Hatem  31:45

Or big stunt.

Richard Hatem  31:46

Yeah, it wasn't one of the million stunts he does on the show. It was just, it was... It wasn't even on the show. It was at home. So later that night, we you know, I get the email, okay, he's injured. He's at the hospital, where we've got our eye on him. Okay. So, Monday morning, we all show up on set. He's there too. But he's got the big boot on. And he's on some painkillers. And he's on crutches. And it's like, well, what are we going to do? We'd already filmed half the episode, you can't write in the injury to take place during that episode. So what we had to do was just, it's like, okay, in the scene where we thought he was going to be standing, he'll be sitting. And in the scene that we thought we were going to film between, you know, the two characters walking down the stairs, well, while David's in totally, will just arrive at the bottom of the stairs. And, you know, Hank will already be there. And they'll just talk at the bottom of the stairs. And they even did things where he would lean into shots. So it looked like he had just walked up, even though he was just sort of leaning back, you know, just right off camera. And then David would step in, and then he would lean in and it looked like they both walked up to the spot they were at. So they had all these ways of getting him through that particular episode. So he concluded that episode, One Angry Fuchsbau, Season Two, Episode 17, with the audience believing he was fine, even though he was injured. Then the next episode, he wasn't in it all, because he had to get surgery. And that's the one where they wrote it in, and they wrote, oh, well, he's on vacation in Hawaii. And then when he came back, he was still on crutches from his surgery. So they said, Oh, he was injured ziplining in Hawaii when he was on vacation.

Susan Lambert Hatem  33:34

So it wasn't part, it wasn't like, Oh, he got a fight in the show. And then he's injured.

Richard Hatem  33:38

No. No, no, because, because they couldn't, they couldn't stage a fight because by then he was injured. So it was like, You know what? We know he has to have surgery. Let's just not, you know, let's not freak him out. Let's not freak production out. Let him take a couple of weeks off, get the surgery. Rest up however much he can. They said oh yeah, no, he'll be, he'll be able to rejoin, he'll be okay. He'll be out of bed but he'll be on crutches. Okay, so he's gonna miss a week of shooting and he's gonna return on crutches All right, you want to vacation, got injured in some crazy way. And now he's back. And then he came back and concluded the rest of the season.

Susan Lambert Hatem  34:16

I would have been more proud of you if you had basically made it that he got injured teaching his kids how to slide into home base. Like Scarecrow and Mrs. King.

Sharon Johnson  34:27

Ha!  Only ...

Richard Hatem  34:27

If only we had the deep mythological machinery in place to, to also make Hank a great dad. But unfortunately, I actually think he was, the the storyline was he was vacationing with his ex-wife. Because apparently Hank had like more than one ex-wife on the show. Like it was very weird, kind of what they were doing with with his backstory, but that's the story was yeah, he was in, vacationing with an ex-wife injured himself ziplining.

Susan Lambert Hatem  34:55

That is so great. And then, and so how many episodes did you have to accommodate that injury?

Richard Hatem  35:02

You know, I don't know, because that was right at the end of the season. That was my final episode in terms of writing. And then Jim and David wrote, like the last few episodes of the season, which they typically would do. Usually the end of the season was a two parter. And they would write it. So by the time I got back from Portland, the writers room had been disbanded for the season, because it's like, okay, we've broken all the stories. And now it's just a matter of, you know, David and Jim finishing up and so, so I was basically on break, and then, and then that was the end of Season Two, and then I didn't come back for Season Three. So that was really the last thing that happened to me on the show, was witnessing Rustle, trying to negotiate around a, with a giant boot on his leg.

Susan Lambert Hatem  35:44

Oh, man.

Sharon Johnson  35:46

Well, thank goodness, it didn't have some giant stunt he was supposed to do in that episode, that it was able, he was able to accommodate, you know, that way.

Richard Hatem  35:55

And there were episodes he did the in fact episodes that I wrote where he had to do big stunts, like a Bigfoot episode. He had big stunts and the Bad Moon Rising. I mean, they're, I mean, they did stunts, there was things to do on the show. But it's, it's, it makes you think what a miracle it is that people aren't getting injured like that all the time, especially when it's just like walking down stairs, or jumping up off the couch. Yeah. I mean, you know, Titans, big stunts every show, year after year after year. And really, in terms of our main cast, no one has been injured to the point where they, where it has to be written into the show that, you know, okay, here's why this person can't get walk without a limp anymore.

Susan Lambert Hatem  36:38

Okay, we're gonna knock on some wood. We're gonna let Kevin now we're about to knock on some wood for you. Because you know, you're about...

Richard Hatem  36:44

Oh now that I've mentioned it. I've totally jinxed it.

Susan Lambert Hatem  36:46

You've totally. You know, so we've been talking about Kate Jackson's injury. But it also leads to this discussion about sort of actors reputations, and and because ..

Richard Hatem  37:04

Like reputations on set, like, are they hard to work with?

Susan Lambert Hatem  37:06

Yeah, that kind of thing.

Richard Hatem  37:08

Was She?

Susan Lambert Hatem  37:09

Well, so the rumor coming off of Charlie's Angels was that Kate Jackson was difficult. For some reason, the rumor, like about Kate Jackson on Charlies Angels, was she was she was difficult. Now, Charlie's Angels was pretty much created for Kate Jackson.

Richard Hatem  37:25


Susan Lambert Hatem  37:26

And so

Richard Hatem  37:27

Well, that doesn't help. (guffaw) That makes me believe the rumor. Who started the rumor? Where, who did you hear the rumor from?

Susan Lambert Hatem  37:32

It just, it was sort of like a known thing. It was sort of like in, you know, I don't know, in TV Guide or in, you know, certain things. This was kind of a known thing. And it was...

Richard Hatem  37:42

... oh was her like, apart from the other ones? Like it's like, oh, Farrah Fawcett was great. Jacqueline Smith, they were a dream ...

Susan Lambert Hatem  37:47

There was also this sort of rumor that was, again, sort of disproven, that, that they didn't get long. That the Angels themselves actress wise, didn't get along, but they remained friends for a long, long time. They were all you know, like, they were, they, they each refuted those rumors. But you're talking about a show where it became a super hit super fast.

Richard Hatem  38:13

Right. It became part of the culture...

Susan Lambert Hatem  38:15

... became part of the culture. But it also like, people were leaving the show, like Farrah Fawcett only was in Season One of that show. And because they didn't have a renewal for her, and then wouldn't negotiate at the level she wanted to negotiate. That's why she left the show.

Richard Hatem  38:33

Right. Well, also, but and she was the breakout star and they wanted her to do movies. And she figured, okay, I've got... She was the Chevy Chase. You know, she was like, Hey, I got famous, did one year on the show. Now I'm gonna go be in movies. I think back then, movies, were still the big draw. Yeah, it's like, if I could get out of this and go to movies, you'd be crazy not to

Susan Lambert Hatem  38:54

Actors, having an opinion, can sound difficult sometimes, I think, on a show, period. But I think it was because she was an opinionated, smart woman who had an idea about what she wanted from her character and from that show, and was very clear about it. Because that was very clear in Scarecrow. When you read those sort of behind the scenes stuff on Scarecrow, they talk about, like, she's an incredibly hard worker. She is very, like working at a very high level. And and basically, if you want to call it difficult, then that's difficult, but that's just, or you call it like, super professional.

Richard Hatem  39:40

Well, no, well, if it's a woman, now, it's a problem.

Susan Lambert Hatem  39:44

Well, certainly in the 80s. Or now.

Richard Hatem  39:47

And it might well, you know...

Sharon Johnson  39:50

Well, how often have you heard stories of difficult male actors on shows? You can't ,it's always about the women who are difficult on a show. And it's very rarely from from that, that there are men that are difficult...

Susan Lambert Hatem  40:06

In the pop culture like, you know, in the publications, you don't hear about it. I've heard about it. But it never actually gets out. Yeah, like where it's like, oh, wait, that person on that show...

Richard Hatem  40:18

Well, I was just listening to another podcast. They were talking about Colombo and Peter Falk and how, like, it was the number one show on NBC, and Universal's, like, we just want to stop. It's it's too expensive, because Peter Falk is too problematic. I mean, it became well known again, at that, at that time, you know, we didn't have you know, immediate access to all information as we do now. But he was a huge pain in the ass. And I mean, I could go through and name so many people, on so many shows, as you know. I mean, you know, all of our favorite shows, we found out those those guys weren't necessarily the easiest to work with.

Susan Lambert Hatem  41:00

No. Yeah.

Sharon Johnson  41:01

That's, that's exactly the point, though. Because it, because it made it into the press, or made it known outside of the industry about all these women who were difficult. But you rarely heard those kinds of things about men who were equally, if not more difficult, or hard to work with, etcetera. I can't, mean, I can't think of many, if any, I mean, I never heard that about Peter Falk, for instance. I think back to when Desperate Housewives was big. And there was a lot of talk in the press about how they all didn't get along. I find it hard to believe that there weren't other shows on ABC, where there were Men that didn't get along. And yet, you nev, we rarely have ever heard about it.

Susan  Lambert Hatem  41:40

She was a producer on the show, she helped create the show. So what's funny is so there was, again, in order to kind of research this stuff, like it's basically TV guides, Starlog magazines. And...

Richard Hatem  41:40

It's weird. It's not as, it's not as sort of... you go back to movies, like, like, if you heard that John Wayne was hard to work with, you'd go, You know, it figures, you know, guy seems like a son of a bitch. You know But all anyone wants to talk about are Betty Davis, you know, it's somehow just like, it's like, more compelling to hear that. And I don't know, I mean, obviously, it has something to do with the fact that there are women. I don't know if it if it's like, oh, because it's, it's a, you know, a kind of misogyny, or if it's just, we perceive  female stars in a particular way. Betty Davis, I guess you're not surprised. But if there's a female star, who presents as non aggressive and friendly and funny and goofy, and then and then you hear oh, my God, she's a monster. Then it's like, Oh, my God! Y`ou know, what do we think our icon dreams have been shattered or something. But But I think where you're going is that ,`those rumors weren't true. She was just, she was a producer on the show!

Susan  Lambert Hatem  

She was a producer on the show, she helped create the show. So what's funny is, so there was, again, in order to kind of research this stuff, like it's basically TV guides, Starlog magazines. And...

Richard Hatem  43:00

Very reliable...

Susan Lambert Hatem  43:02

...Very reliable sources (sarcastically). But even as like, I think that like, so one of the TV Guide references that I found when I was Googling, Kate Jackson and Scarecrow and `Mrs. King was, was literally someone writing into TV Guide in like 2007 (hehehe)

Richard Hatem  43:02


Susan Lambert Hatem  43:10

And saying, "Well, I heard Kate Jackson was difficult on Charlie's Angels. Did she learn her lesson and change her ways for Scarecrow and Mrs. King?"

Richard Hatem  43:31

Signed, Jacqueline Smith.

Sharon Johnson  43:34


Susan Lambert Hatem  43:34

And thankfully, the answer was like, well, let's talk about this for a minute. And actually sort of address the fact that, you know, being, you know, that she was a producer on the show, and that she was, uh, you know, actually Not known to be difficult. And on Charlie's Angels, in retrospect, when it comes out that like, actually there really, like nobody really pointed to anything, right?!

Richard Hatem  44:01

And I'm sure the standard was much higher, I'm sure again, within the business, there was, I, my guess is that women had to be a lot more concerned with how they were coming off. I think they still do in so many ways. And us and women of color, especially, we, I've seen it numerous times where, where some it will become clear. Someone will inform me typically because I'm a white man on the set, but someone will inform me that that actress that you're, you know, that you're dealing with and that you think is great... is great! But one of the reasons is because that person feels they have to be extra careful not to be seen as anything other than 100% cooperative and friendly and ready to work, because people will believe the reputation so quickly. And those people are going to hire you or not hire you. And I'm sure Kate Jackson, although she was doing well, didn't want a reputation, and had to worry about it in a way that other people didn't. Clearly Peter Falk was not worried about his next job.

Susan Lambert Hatem  45:11

No. So I so I'm going to read a little Kate Jackson quote from TV Guide in 1984. So this is Kate Jackson, who played housewife turned spy Amanda King told TV guy in 1984. Yes, I had my say about Charlie's Angels. Why is that such a big deal? We're not robots. Though. Some people would like that. I was getting up at four or five in the morning, pouring my life into it. T&A, that's all anybody wants to talk about. But I knew we had to have story and character.

Richard Hatem  45:44

What's T&A?

Susan Lambert Hatem  45:47

Okay, now you're just being funny.

Richard Hatem  45:50

I think maybe some people don't know what you're referring to.

Susan Lambert Hatem  45:54

Charlie's Angels was known as T&A Television, which T#ts and As#, and I don't know if he can say that on a podcast, but it's mine. So I think I can.

Richard Hatem  46:01

Well, you're pouring your life into it.

Susan Lambert Hatem  46:03

I'm pouring my life into it (laughing). Her attitude did indeed carry over to Scarecrow, and the actress saw no need to back away from it. I worked 12 or 14 hours a day, She said, I'm working. It's Saturday night. And that's why I can get so distressed and crazy and start yelling and screaming at the studio. We got to do this. We got to do that. I'm giving my life to this business.

Richard Hatem  46:30

They were working on a Saturday night?

Susan Lambert Hatem  46:31

Apparently so

Richard Hatem  46:32


Susan Lambert Hatem  46:33

Let's make it as good as we can. I'm sure some people think of me as a pain. But when you have 13 weeks at best, you can lose an audience very quickly, and I  can't afford that.

Richard Hatem  46:44

I guarantee George Peppard never, never felt he had to explain why he was the way he was, on the set of the A-Team. Everyone just knew.

Susan Lambert Hatem  46:48

Well, famously, again, you didn't hear about it in the Trades, or in you know, pop culture magazines at the time. But I know for a fact that on the A-Team, they basically could not put George Peppard and Mr. T in the same scenes for a lot of the later seasons of the A-Team.

Richard Hatem  47:13

Yeah. Oh, and difficult. And look, it difficult can can express itself, in many ways. Difficult can be, we can't film after lunch with a particular actor. And I'm not talking about George Peppard, but well, this particular actor likes to drink his lunch. So make sure you get all his scenes in the morning, because he will be of no use to you in the afternoon. These are major network stars. I'm not going to name names, but man, you know who these people are. If I named the names you go, you're kidding me? And it's like, Nope! They, it was it was an effort to get them on set sober. And this goes all the way back in Hollywood. But again, well it'd be, it wouldn't be right to talk about men that way. Come on, because men are running the studio.

Susan Lambert Hatem  48:00


Richard Hatem  48:03

Sorry, 80s TV Ladies.

Sharon Johnson  48:06


Susan Lambert Hatem  48:06


Richard Hatem  48:06

Hate to be the one to bring the room down. Hahahaha.

Susan Lambert Hatem  48:09

Thanks a lot, Richard for coming on to explain, misogyny.

Sharon Johnson  48:13

(Laughing)It is, it is what it was. And it is what it is. There's no question about it. And and it's it's nice to think that as we go forward, some of this will change. And also, as we look back, that there'll be a reexamination of people like Kate Jackson and a recognition that whatever reputation she had for being difficult ... Was it earned? Was it really? You know, it? Was it? Was she someone who, again, couldn't? couldn't film in the afternoon? Or was she just someone just was like, we need to make it better? Well,

Susan Lambert Hatem  48:51

I think she was in, we need to make it better. Yeah, everything you hear is not, she wasn't being difficult because she didn't want to show up. Or she, I mean, she was clearly showing up with her, you know, broken, broken foot. And she clearly was trying to show up in later seasons, when things got really dark for her with a serious cancer diagnosis. So, but again, you weren't allowed, you know, it's kind of to show show fear or injury, right?! And you're certainly not allowed to show an emotion and being overly passionate about a piece if, you're not as much allowed if you're a woman, in the 80s. Or now.

Richard Hatem  49:35

And it's still, it's still a culture that isn't used to hearing from women from a place of power. So I'm talking about from the heads of the studios all the way down to the guys working on the set. It it's, it hits different and, and people's level of maturity is not always what you want it to be. So What, you know, someone who is aggressive and they're a man is just, you know, you hear this all the time is, with directors, male directors come on set and are absolute tyrants. But the crew was okay with that because they're used to it. So it's just like, well, he knows what he wants. But if a female director comes in, and has that same level of energy and demand of here's what it's going to be... That's uncomfortable because they're not used to that. And they characterize it in a different way. That person's a bitch. You know, oh, look out. This one's you.... Oh, do you don't want to get on her wrong side. You know. And, and, you know, people will warn you that people have warned me walking onto the set of shows I'm producing and warning me, oh, look out for this. This director, we got this woman, we got the you know, She's tough. She's tough. And I'm like, I've just spent two weeks in prep meetings with this person. They're fine. They know what they're doing. I know, it's your first day with her. But I don't know what the hell you're talking about. They're like, they're like every other director I'm working with. They come in, they've got a lot of work they need to get done. And they're probably anticipating a lot of blowback from you guys, anyway, one way or the other. Hey she doesn't know what she's doing. And that's the other side. So it's, you know, it's one or the other. And I think, I think a lot of female directors have decided, if it's one or the other, then I'd rather it just be that I come in and do my job. And you can call it whatever you want to call it. And I'm sure that's how Kate Jackson felt. Sounds like it.

Susan Lambert Hatem  51:35

Yeah, I think she was very clear about what she wanted on Scarecrow. It certainly at least, it seems like from from the TV guides.

Sharon Johnson  51:46


Richard Hatem  51:46

Again, you can't argue TV Guide. It's there.

Susan Lambert Hatem  51:50

I gotta tell you this Starlog article about Juanita Bartlett that I found this morning is pretty great. I'll share it with you later. I told her, I start, our Juanita Bartlett story. Earlier today.

Richard Hatem  52:00

All right. Well, thanks for having me on!

Susan Lambert Hatem  52:02

Well, thanks for coming on. And a, clarifying. Thank you. Maybe we'll have you back.

Sharon Johnson  52:07

Good to know! Thank you.

Sharon Johnson  52:07

Oh, God, anytime you want. I'm dying. I'm just, you realize I'm just literally 20 feet away. I'm just right down the driveway. Anytime the two of you want to chat again. All right.

song  52:23

Oh it's fun to be a mom and it's fun to be a spy. It's fun to be a spy and a mom. It's fun to be a mom and it's fun to be a spy. It's fun to be a spy and a mom!

Susan Lambert Hatem  52:30

Okay, and we're back. It's so exciting that we got to have Richard on. We'll probably have him on again because he does live with me. I want to go back to Episode 14 of Season One, Dead Ringer. This was written by Juanita Bartlett and again, I think it's pretty much where she took over the show. I'm not sure. But it was directed by William Wiard, who was a big Rockford Files director. So I'm pretty sure that Juanita Bartlett brought him on to the show. And he ended up directing several Scarecrow and Mrs Kings after that. A little bit about Dead Ringer, Amanda must hide a Hungarian defector Magna Pretka who happens to look just like Francine, the agent from IFF. And just must hide her in her house, while Lee and Mel Stewart arrange a safe house and keep the Hungarian bad guys away from her. And so there's a lot of like spy, like, you know, intrigue in this one. But mostly the twist here is that while Magna and Amanda are at her house, Magna's really really unpleasant. And Amanda who is super nice and cheery has to be nice to the really really unpleasant Hungarian defector. And that feels very kind of Rockford Files, where  Rockford's constantly dealing with people that are really annoying to him. And it's pretty funny here because, and like at what point Magda sort of makes fun of her kids and Amanda has to defend her kids. The only thing that I like in this episode that also felt like a little bit of a Rockford thing was when Lee brings over Magda and her mother's upstairs. And her mother's like who's there? from upstairs. And Lee is like, just just tell her the truth. She won't believe you. And she does. So Amanda is like, nothing special mom just just a Hungarian refugee. And she gets away with it. And Lee's right! And that felt like a total Rockford line. Like you could totally see James Garner in a completely different situation saying, tell the truth, she won't believe you. Lee plays, is very different character. So it reads very differently. But there was something about that line that I was like, that feels like a Juanita Bartlett line. There's a little bit more cynicism, but in a fun way. Kind of comes in the show and it's not, cynicism is probably the wrong word, but, things things get a little more spy serious, I think after this. And but they also get a little bit kind of mildly and by edgy again, not edgy at all, but because it's really, still very goofy show.

Sharon Johnson  52:50

It's the 1980s

Susan Lambert Hatem  53:56

It's the 1980s after all. But anyway, so I am very excited when Juanita Bartlett takes over because you start to see a lot of Rockford names. And she, it's also another female writer comes on to the show, at least writes, you start seeing them. Not a lot. Still no female directors until Kate Jackson takes the helm. But

Sharon Johnson  55:47

In mentioning Rockford Files, so you're you're reminding me of one of the things that I always liked about Rockford is it ... I mean, they're always, you know, stories about PI's on television. There's there still are to a certain extent, but that one really stepped away a little bit from the formula, in some little twist or some little thing that you would not see any other show doing, of that ilk. And things like this, like, yes, it's a Hungarian princess. And, gosh, she's just not a nice person. That she said, that sounds very Rockford. And that sounds very much like what you would have expect to see on that show. And it gives this show just a little bit extra lift, in my opinion, to see that. So yeah.

Susan Lambert Hatem  56:32

But I also was enjoying the show beforehand. So I'm I'm a big, like, I think there's a real interesting formula of success. But I think ...

Sharon Johnson  56:42

But it also.Yeah, definitely. But I think as with any show, it has to evolve. As Amanda's skills evolve. As Amanda's experience evolves, she's not going to be the same character she was at the beginning and she isn't, as by the time we get to the end. So it was, I thought it was kind of a nice evolution, if you will, of the show is where it's starting to take her Amanda a little bit more seriously as, and showing her skills and what she brings to the table in doing this new job.

Susan Lambert Hatem  57:10

In some ways. Season Two isn't my favorite season. I'm always a big sucker for the first, so it's a it's a tough call, because Season One, pretty close, a lot of charm. But Season Two for me, there's just a lot of highlights as well. So next episode, we'll be looking at Season Two of Scarecrow and Mrs. King and and we'll be talking a little bit about the stunts. The Season One and Season Two stunts were pretty, pretty spectacular. And Season Two, suddenly they get very excited about actually shooting in Europe. I'm, I want to kind of figure out, try to figure out why they did that. Because it's an interesting choice. It's an exciting choice. I mean, it had to be a big budget, you know, to do that. But I don't know whether that was Kate Jackson, or the Network, or somebody going, now we got to get over there. And it may have had something to do with Remington Steele. I wonder if Remington Steele was doing that. Because this was very much I think they were sort of chasing Remington Steele a little bit. And Remington Steele was weirdly chasing them, sometimes, it felt like. So our audio-ography for this episode is, I have two websites and a book to recommend. The book is, Where the Girls Are: Growing Up Female With the Mass Media by Susan J. Douglas. And the websites are Chance Encounters, which is a fan site that has a lot of fan fiction and videos and a lot of love for Scarecrow. It's at chance encounters.weebly.com. And these will be on our website, of course. And then the other website is, Just Walk With Me, at just walk with me.com. And that is of course a line that Lee Stetson says to Amanda King in Episode One. And that site goes through every episode, but in a very fun and enjoyable way. And with a lot of love, but also a lot of humor about the 80s and the goofiness of the show. So to wrap up, we have some thank yous for today,

Sharon Johnson  59:18

We want to give a shout out to our Audio Engineer Kevin Ducey. Co Producer Melissa Roth.

Susan Lambert Hatem  59:24

Thanks Melissa. Melissa is over there on the microphone correcting me when I get it wrong.  

Melissa Roth  59:27

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Susan Lambert Hatem  59:30

I also want to shout out the guys from Astonishing Legends, Forrest Burgess and Scott Philbrick who've been very helpful to me in starting this podcast

Sharon Johnson  59:38

And our other advisors, Chris Stachiew and Mike White, from Projection Booth and Culture Cast. These guys have been invaluable resources to us. Check out their podcast if you haven't already,

Susan Lambert Hatem  59:52

And we want to hear from you. What's the 80s Ladies driven TV show that you remember? or have heard of? or want us to cover? And find out more about us at the website 80sTVLadies.com. That's eight zero s TV ladies.com. And of course, you can follow us on all the social medias. We hope you'll join us for the next episode, where we continue our dive into Scarecrow and Mrs. King.

Sharon Johnson  1:00:17

We hope 80s TV Ladies brings you joy and laughter and lots of fabulous new and old shows to watch. All of which will lead us forward toward being amazing ladies of the 21st century.

Susan Lambert Hatem  1:00:30

That's what you are Sharon!

Sharon Johnson  1:00:31

You to Susan!

Susan Lambert Hatem  1:00:32



80s TV Ladies.  I’m so sexy and so pretty.

80s TV Ladies. I’m steppin’ out into the city.

80s TV Ladies.  I been treated kind of sh#*ty.  

Working hard for the money in a man’s world.

80s TV Ladies!