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Theme Music:
80s TV Ladies. I’m so sexy and so pretty.
80s TV Ladies. I’m steppin’ out into the city.
80s TV Ladies. I been treated kind of sh#*ty.
Working hard for the money in a man’s world.
80s TV Ladies!

Susan Lambert Hatem 00:17
Hello everyone! Welcome to 80s TV Ladies! We're just going to jump right in. I'm Susan Lambert Hatem.

Sharon Johnson 00:22
And I'm Sharon Johnson. Today we're talking about female driven shows from the 1980s. And we're well into the show Scarecrow and Mrs. King starring Kate Jackson and Bruce Boxleitner. Today, we'll be talking about Season Three.

song 00:36 Scarecrow And Mrs. King Theme Song Parody
Oh, it's fun to be a mom and it's fun to be a spy. It's fun to be a spy and a mom. It's fun to be a mom. And it's fun to be a spy. It's fun to be a spy and a Mom!

I think we should call this this episode of the podcast Slipping Sideways. Season Three of Scarecrow & Mrs. King. I don't know, Sharon, what are your big impressions?

I thought this season sort of took the show down another route. It seemed a little bit more convoluted plot wise as well as less straightforward in terms of what was happening. There seemed to be kind of, I don't know, it just it just didn't feel like the previous first seasons in a lot of ways.

Yeah, it takes the show a little bit in a different direction. Yeah. Season Three. And some of its good.

And some of it's odd, I think more than anything else, because it's, it sort of feels like a hodgepodge, in some ways, of episodes.

Sure.

Like it was still trying to find itself again.

Yeah. And you're like it's Season Three. Shouldn't we know where we are? Except that it has... We have new show runners. So, Juanita Bartlett, who ran the show from mid-Season One through Season Two, is gone. She moved on to, I believe, a show called Spenser For Hire. And so new show runners come in. The nice thing is we actually have a couple of more female writers on the show. In fact, the first episode that airs is written by a woman, Kathleen Shelley. The second episode that airs was written by Whitney Wherrett Roberson. She actually went on to become like a Pastor. We looked her up because we were looking for people to come bring on the show. And she wrote several episodes of television in the 80s. And then she left, and then she became a Pastor, and she wrote a couple books.

Wow.

And but she unfortunately passed away a few years ago.

Well, everybody has their own Hollywood story. And I guess she felt she'd seen it. Done it. And it's time to do something else.

A number of people who, who wrote television in the 80s went on to do other things later, like, you know, Teaching is a big one. And, but the Pastor was a new one. There, there's an interesting thing about Season Three, and that the first female director works on the show. And that female director is... Do you know who that is? Sharon?

Not off the top of my head, please remind me.

I will remind you because it's Kate Jackson! The only female directors for Scarecrow and Mrs. King, were Kate Jackson. She directed two episodes, one in Season Three and one in Season Four. And I kind of wish they had had a couple... There are a couple of female directors in, in in the world of 80s television at this time, but none of them directed on Scarecrow and Mrs. King. Except for Kate Jackson, and it was her directorial debut. And so that was kind of exciting in this season. Season Three.

I guess it's not too big a surprise though, in that, I mean, even now, most television is directed by men. Which makes it all the more surprising that they, that they would have done that because even though it was moving forward very slowly, there was a steady, for lack of a better word, progression of their relationship to something romantic as the season went on. And by showing the episodes, some of the early episodes out of order, you kind of lose that progression a little bit. That just feels off somehow.

Yes. And in the 80s it was, it was even more so. But it's it's nice to see some ladies on the writing staff which we had a few Season One and Season Two... a few other than the show runners. But now we're, we have a few here. Whitney writes a couple for this season. So that's very exciting. I think one of the reasons that this season feels a little unusual... There's a lot of discussion in the fan world for this... that the first five episodes of this season are out of order. That they feel out of order, particularly as it relates to their relationship. Because the relationship takes a new step. Right? So in the course of the season, basically, Scarecrow and Mrs. King start a relationship.

Right.

They become friends in Season Two, and partners. And then Season Three sees a very somewhat confusing trajectory towards them dating. And when you have just case of the week, you can move episodes around. But when you're actually tracking a relationship, it sometimes is very, very challenging. If you do that. I mean, in Murder She Wrote, in Colombo, it doesn't, it literally doesn't matter what episode you're on. It's like Colombo is the same. Angela is very, is the same. And and then, you know, it doesn't, it doesn't matter whether you're in... almost even what season you're in.

The only exceptions were the, the flat out soaps like the Dynasties and Dallas's and Knott's Landings of the time. I mean, even now you can, you can fire up any Law and Order episode and it almost doesn't matter what season... to be able to get something out of the episode. Because it's not about the characters. It's not about what... it's about the case, whatever the case is. So.

And I think you'll see this with a lot of, a lot of the shows that we'll be looking at from the 80s. It was the beginning of you know, it's somewhere between a Soap and a Case of the Week Show. There was something about this season, weirdly, that became more of almost like a Workplace Show. I think some of the home, like mom stuff falls a little bit behind because... and then we have a couple of nice episodes that focus on some of the other characters in the show. But we start off the season with A Lovely Little Affair. That's the first episode again, written by Kathleen Shelley and directed by Harvey Laidman. And basically, like Amanda gets a little bit of a, she gets an assignment to track down... to to follow a guy because he's in town and he's an art restorer. And he's in town working on something, but he has a high level security clearance. Because it turns out he's in town working on the Declaration of Independence. And his half-sister has been kidnapped back in Italy. And so then, of course, chaos ensues. But but meanwhile, Amanda gets a little bit of a alternate romance, potential other romance than Mr. Scarecrow, Mr. Lee Stetson. So what's weird is in, in watching this, like it definitely felt like, Oh! They're trying to basically give her like another like, Oh! I could have this interesting love affair. But also, like literally the guy's in town, his half-sister has been kidnapped. And they're going to basically blackmail him into doing something he shouldn't do with important vital American documents. It's a little National Treasure-esque going on. And, but you're like, and he's like, Hey Lady! Want to go to get some coffee and have dinner with me? He's like starting a romance and his sister has been kidnapped. And he's like, it's a really hard time for me, I can't talk about it. But you're making... Let's go to dinner. Like, Let me kiss you! Like, like, it's... it is a little bit awkward. You know, but, but it's also fun that there's like this sort of other romance. But I also think it's a nice progression of Amanda getting her own, sort of getting to do kind of her own case a little bit, which is very different than where she's been. She really is becoming an agent who gets her own assignments, and kind of gets to go off on her own and do things without Scarecrow. And then of course, then they have to team up and work together to solve the big stuff.

I mean, it's clearly not a, at least initially something that's that's very high stakes. At least that's what the agency thinks. They just were like, Let's just see, see what you can find out. But that's, you got to start somewhere. And so that's it's it's nice to see that they're finally giving her, with some training wheels a chance to go out and see what she can do on her own.

Yes. But this is where the relationship gets really weird. Because at the end of this episode, basically Lee Stetson asks her out on a date, in this kind of cutesy way... in this little Tag. So, the show has really settled into trying to have a Tag at the end of every show. That's very much about the two of them... that very much is this sort of cute thing... is one of the things I definitely remembered about the show. That, I think is one of the strongest things about it is, is them being very cute and charming together. And you know, you sit through a lot of a pretty uneven show and then you get a nice scene with them. And you're like, Ah,Okay, I love the show! I do. I'm big sucker for that stuff! But the relationship is very, it does not track well in these first few episodes. Because very shortly then, like he asked her out, and it's pretty clear that it's kind of a date. But they're just kind of going to play it as something fun to do together. And then like a few episodes later, he's got this like, Date that he is trying to basically dress up as Amanda. He's like, Hey, remember that great thing that we did, like one New Year's at an Embassy Party, where we had to be there and do something. A show, an episode we never saw, like, something that never, we never saw happen that sounded like, Oh, that would've been great episode. A New Year's Eve Episode at an Embassy. But he's like, Oh, you wore this great dress. Can I get that dress for my new girlfriend?! And she's like, I made that dress and now I'm offended. Like (laughing) so their their their relationship is really all over the place. It's very clear to me that that I'm starting a relationship with a new person who is actually somewhat normal person. So clearly, I've been affected by Amanda king. But I don't actually think I could date her. That episode should have come before this episode, A Lovely Little Affair. In my mind.

I'll make a confession. As is typical for me in my television watching, I tend not to pick up on those kinds of things. I guess in, somewhere in my mind, I've decided the Writers and the people that are making, the Producers have decided they're going to go this way. And my job is to just enjoy the ride, and not really think about it too much. So when I was watching those first few episodes, and even though on the back of my mind, I had noticed those little incongruencies. I quickly just dismissed it and went, Okay. On to the next episode, without really thinking about it too much. So that's my confession.

I know and I obsess over everything, particularly if it's a relationship thing. Like either buddy relationship or romantic relationships. So again, everybody is pretty sure that the season was supposed to start with Episode Five, the fifth episode that airs Welcome to America Mr. Brand. It was the first episode shot in the production schedule. And and pretty much all the fans who have spent a lot of time reordering these first five episodes, and a lot of discussion over what happens between Episode One and Episode Five. Not everybody agrees which order they should be in, but almost everybody agrees that Welcome to America, Mr. Brand should come first. And it was first on the production schedule. So in that one, that one was actually nominated for an Emmy for Outstanding Costume for a Series.

woo hoo

So it was another Emmy nomination for them. And Amanda also has a little job to do. She babysits a vacationing British accountant who basically is sort of a James Bond wanna-be, and then they get into a lot of trouble and have to save, you know, things. It's fun. That's a fun episode. That's pretty light feels like an easy one to start with. There's some other more interesting episodes for me ...

But at least. Yeah, but at least that one felt, in a lot of ways, more in tune with the Scarecrow and Mrs. King we knew before. And perhaps if they had aired the episodes in the production order, that progression might... into sort of the new... I'm sure they thought improved... Scarecrow and Mrs. King, might have been less jarring, perhaps. So yeah, that that that episode definitely was a fun one.

Well, I don't think this was an easy show to produce.

Right?!

Clearly! If we've got, if we're in Season Three, and we're on our third Show-runner. That's usually a sign that there's some challenges in this production. Now, I got really excited about the production schedule that Sharon found. Because that, like then I start going, Okay, wait! So if this, if they shot this one first, what does this mean? And we're gonna jump back real quick to Season Two. Because remember, we talked about like, why did they go to Europe? It was exciting to go to Europe. But they did like four episodes in Europe. And then Production Schedule shows that they shot a couple. And then they went to Europe. You know, that's weird. And it was 1984. And they were shooting the show in Los Angeles. And what was happening in 1984, Sharon, in Los Angeles?

I think a little thing called the Olympics was happening.

That's right, the summer of 1984, the Olympics were happening in Los Angeles and people were freaking out. Now, I was just about to arrive in Los Angeles for my first time. I had been accepted into USC School of Cinema. And I was coming out to start school in September. And I got really, really, people were really excited about the Olympics being in the United States for the first time in a long time. And in California, in Los Angeles. And I was so like, Mom! I gotta go out early. I really want to go out early! And I really want to see some Olympics because a lot of the events, the swimming events, were held at the USC campus.

Right.

And they were held all, and the events were all over Los Angeles, and people were freaking out that, all of LA was going to shut down. That you couldn't do anything. You, it was like everybody in LA was... the residents were like... this is going to be a nightmare.

Gridlock was predicted. You weren't going to be able to go anywhere or do anything with what with all this. And I'd already been in LA for a couple years. I was working Miracle Mile area and so they changed us to a four week schedule, four day a week schedule, ten hours a day, four days a week. Which turned out to be fantastic! And there was the, and it turned out to be nothing! I mean traffic has net, until the Pandemic, traffic has never been so good in Los Angeles. It was awesome!

That was the thing! Like, it was like Y2k. It was like, Oh my God! We, you know, the the, you know, the sky is falling. Let's prepare for it. Everybody hunkered down. And then it turns out because nobody was driving around, there wasn't as much traffic. It wasn't a problem at all. However, I think a lot of Productions were like freaking out that they were going to have problems doing production in Los Angeles during the Olympics. And so I kind of think that's one of the reasons they were like, Well, where can we go? And they were like, Let's go to Europe!

Yeah, it's an international show. Spies are everywhere. And it worked out well for us, the audience, because those were some fantastic looking episodes.

We've gotten a couple of call sheets. And there's one that really stood out for me. I think this was from Season Three. Yes, George Geiger Executive Producer... It's a little note, a little memo to Miss Beverly Garland from October 15, 1985. "Dear Beverly, I thought you might like to see the first Writer's Draft of the show we've been talking about... This ends up being a show that's kind of about, about her character... Please keep in mind, we are still working on this script. And that, in fact, we have had no chance yet for the staff to rewrite any of it. However, the basic plot involvement for Dotty is already there. And I'll talk to you more about it on Friday, see you then." And it's this lovely little memo from George Geiger. And they did a Dotty episode, like, you know, which was really fun. But that's in October. And then there's a Call Sheet for, this is a, One Bear Dances and One Bear Doesn't. And I noticed that they were shooting very close to the air date, more than you would think would be comfortable. It's like a month out. And I'm like, they gotta Shoot this thing. They've got to Post this thing. And they gotta get it on the Air. That's, that feels really tight for me. And they don't start off that tight. Eh, when they first start shooting, there seems to be a little bit more, play? But there's a, you know, something crazy, one of the Call Sheets was like January 4, and then that show was on the Air in like three weeks. It was harder to film in the 80s. I'm looking at these Call Sheets, and and they're handwritten. It's, you know, they're literally... they, you know, it's a, it's a form, and then you fill out the Call Sheet every day. And it's handwritten. Do you remember that? All right, I'm gonna pull Melissa in for this. Melissa Roth is our Producer. She also worked in Camera in the 90s and 2000s, on productions. But I was just so struck by the handwritten Call Sheet.

Melissa Roth 18:03
It's so sweet.

It's so sweet.

Isn't that quaint? Well, I did, in the 80s. Yeah, there was, yeah. I wouldn't surprise me that a lot of it was handwritten. Usually, you get those inserts where it looks a little bit more typed. But...

Laughing

Yeah, there's a couple of where, certainly, you know, it's always Kate and Bruce. Right?

Yeah.

But then everybody else, like, who we're using. And so basically, what a Call Sheet is, and I think most people know this, that have been following any kind of television is, every, every day, there's a Call Sheet for the next day. So, you know, who was, who is involved in the shoot. Where they're supposed to go. If there's any Special Effects. If there's any special consideration, you know, crazy Locations. Or, you know, there's going to be, you know, Fake Gunfire. Things like that. So everybody knows what's happening,

And also what time they need to be there, in particular. It tells them what's the Call Time, hence the Call Sheet, so that people know what they need, when they need to be there. It tells the actors what time their call ti, they need to be there. And I would assume the rest of the crew as well. So that they can prepare and be ready to shoot by a certain time. Because they only have so many hours in a day that they can, that they can shoot without incurring many, many additional costs.

Yeah, it's interesting that... it's like semi-redacted up at the top, but it looks like it's day 12 of 85.

For the Season.

Yeah, so that's 85 shooting days for 20 episodes. So..

Although this is January? I feel like that is January, so that would have maybe, it's day 12 of the Year.

Oh, that's the date. Because they will, some... You're right. That's the date. Because they they should show what day, you know you have...

I know. What we're gonna, we're gonna keep tracking down some Call Sheets.

Yeah, this isn't a full Call Sheet.

No it's not.

It'd be nice to see the whole thing.

Yeah, there are a couple...

But I can tell you, anecdotally from someone who worked on the Moonlighting show, is they were very tight. Like they were waiting around doing Dialogue changes, and the Episode would Air the following week.

That yeah, that's crazy.

Yeah, it was known for craziness. But you also, remember the 80s were also known for...

Craziness. A little bit of...

with a wink and a nod. There is a lot of craziness going on.

And I think craziness, we're really talking about drugs.

And alcohol.

Cocaine and alcohol. Yeah...

...Yeah, I heard alot of speed balling.

I heard that a lot. I heard that from people on Sets, in the 80s.

Yep.

I gotta go visit. I got to go visit a couple Sets when I was in Film School, and uh...

Pretty standard fare.

Yeah. I was not involved though. At one point, I was offered Cocaine, but I turned it down.

Laughing

Not me. Nor did I ever, Mr. Eisenberg.

But that's a story for another day, for another podcast even. All right.

I have no idea what you're talking about ...

We don't know. We dont know what's happening. Oh, my God, we really went off. We really went off script. I barely have a script and we went off of it.

Laughing wonderfully.

That's crazy.

That's my fault.

Okay I don't ...

I drove you into the...

I don't think

... seedy underbelly ...

And there's no evidence that there was any... that kind of craziness going on for Scarecrow and Mrs. King!

Listen there’s enough ways, production-wise, to get things behind without throwing that into it. Even on the most well, because there are a lot of things that are out of your control. Maybe somebody got, somebody essential got sick, or something that they needed didn't get there. I mean, there's all kinds of things that can happen. And they have to, they have to just improvise, and that can cause some delay. So, you never know.

And it's very clear that Kate Jackson was considered a perfectionist. She wanted the show to be a certain way. And she saw that show a certain way. And, and she had. She, you know, was the Production... one of the Production Companies that owned the show. So, you know, I think she's very clear in the interviews from the 80s that, that she was very much opinionated about how that shows should be and how her character should be. And, and again, I actually, it's one of the things I think, makes the show stand out, is that Female Character is very well defined. It is very much a Kate Jackson vehicle.

Right!

As it was supposed to be! Like that, it was, that's why the show got made. So again, I think when you have a strong Star who has an opinion, and particularly in the 80s, I think it could be a challenge for everybody.

Because without Kate Jackson, there is no Scarecrow and Mrs. King. So.

No, and we love Bruce Boxleitner. He's fabulous. But it is, it could be Mrs. King and Scarecrow. Except that that doesn't sound as good.

Exactly.

It was the time. The 80s was...is... what. Melissa and I talked about this, because Melissa is sad that it's, that Scarecrow comes first. And, and is an argument that it's not a Ladies, um, an 80s TV Ladies show.

Well, I thought about that too. And I think there's, I'm sure there are a lot of reasons. I do agree that it sounds better Scarecrow and Mrs. King for some reason that seems to roll a little bit better. But I also think that there probably was this perception that that there was a part of the Audience that that would be less inclined to watch Mrs. King and Scarecrow then they would be inclined to watch Scarecrow and Mrs. King. So I'm, I'm sure they have, that somewhere in the bowels of the records of CBS wherever they may be. There's research that says that. Because they research all this stuff to death. So.

Yeah, and I think they just liked names. Like it was the time, like I'm thinking Kate and Allie.

Yes.

Ten Speed and Brown Shoe. Hardcastle and McCormick. Like, definitely that was a, that was an 80s title thing... was some crazy names, throw them together. And there you go. You're you're ready to roll.

Yeah.

So I think again, Scarecrow and Mrs. King really is a charming title. You know, Remington Steele. Right? That's all about, that's literally, they just leave her out all together.

Exactly. (laughing)

We're gonna get to Remington Steele. So yeah, so we will be covering Remington Steele we think next. Right? Yeah, we go...

wait wait wait. before...

Yeah.

The original question was who's Number One on the Call Sheet? In like, you know, like Scarecrow and Mrs. King. I wonder who's number one on the call...

Kate Jackson is Number One on the Call Sheet.

Right. I be interested in knowing in Remington Steele, who’s Number One on the Call Sheet. Give me that Call Sheet back.

Okay, this call sheet. I don't think it has her on there. Oh, no, there she is. Okay, Kate Jackson one. It's got everyone. She's number one on the call sheet.

Amen...

Number Two Bruce Boxleitner...

... as well she should be Number One on the Call Sheet.

Yeah.

I'd be interested to see where, who was One on the Pierce Brosnan show.

I would be interested to see who it was First Season and who it was Second Season.

My guess is Stephanie Zimbalist ...

Exactly. I was gonna say First Season I would guess it would be Her, because of her last name. Because her father was a fairly well-known actor at that point. And they, Pierce Brosnan had done nothing really. Here. Nobody knew who he was, but sure by Second Season ...

No, they don't change it. She would stay throughout.

She would stay. But then that would be crazy.

...It would be some horrific... I mean he, I don't think he had to juice to go up to Number One at that time, even though he was well liked. You know what I'm saying? Like...

Yeah, we're gonna find out.

...Yeah. Call Sheets are interesting ...You get to know a lot of information....

Stay tuned....

... That's for another episode...

Laughing

... of 80s TV Ladies.

Yeah, you'll have to come back for our Remington Steele episodes to find out the answer to that question.

Number One on the Call Sheet. That is true. And that is still true today. It's a lot of discussion as shows, you know, move into their you know, second and third season. And the dynamics of those shows change and, and stars are created by shows. What happens? Bruce Willis, completely unknown. Cybill Shepherd, huge star. Right? So Moonlighting. I totally, it's very, yeah. Oo.We. Oh, Number One on the Call Sheet. That's a whole other podcast. Hehehehe.

We're gonna start like, we've got two podcasts to start now. Hehehehe. Number One on the Call Sheet. That could get you in a lot of trouble! Making that podcast!

Laughing

Yes.

Well, if you stick to older, older shows, not current ones. Eh!

Right. Ha. Hehehehe.

Nobody cares anymore about those ...

Nobody cares. Ha! People care. I think they still care. We're gonna find out.

Always, always follow Number One on the Call Sheet.

All right. Well, so we. I think we need to take a break because...

Laughs

We've talked about Cocaine and Number One on the Call Sheet. We've really gotten ourselves into a lot of trouble.

Sorry.

That's okay.

It's Okay! Good trouble.

It's good trouble. All right, we are, we are going to bring on Richard Hatem again. My husband, Richard Hatem, who is also a television Showrunner, and TV Writer and Producer. And, and he's going to talk about rearranging episodes for your Season and why that might need to happen. So, we're gonna bring him on just a few minutes, but we're gonna take a break.
song 26:40
Oh it's fun to be a mom, and it's fun to be a spy. It's fun to be a spy and a mom. It's fun to be a mom and it's fun to be a spy. It's fun to be a spy and a mom!

Okay, so we're having on Richard Hatem. Let's welcome back Richard Hatem.

Richard Hatem 27:20
Hey, how are you?

song 27:22
Hey, Richard!

Good to see you!

Good to see you, too!

We dragged him out of the house.

Again, I need travel expenses.

Giggling

Yeah, here, here's a cup of coffee.

We'll see what we can do.

Anyway, we've been talking about Season Three and the crazy rescheduling of the first five episodes in particular. From the Production Schedule, and from what we think was the original plan for when those episodes were going to air. But I did want to talk to you about what happens now, when episodes have to be reordered in in shows, now.

Well, shows don't get reordered that much now. It's, I think it's sort of falling away. Certainly, in Streaming, it doesn't happen a lot because you're doing shorter orders that are very much Chapters that have to be followed in order. Because television has changed. And again, especially for Cable and Streaming, there's not a lot of shows that are so episodic, that they can be shown in any order. So that really doesn't happen. If they don't like something, they'll reshoot it before they'll just simply reorder it. But um, but as you go back decade by decade, as long as the show is slightly episodic, and there aren't major things in terms of plot that are going to not match up. That's what makes the difference. Okay, a show I talked about a lot The Rockford Files. And this was every show back in the 70s. And even into the 80s. You'd have an episode, you know, Season Three, let's say. Where Jim would get hired by his ex fiance. Okay, a woman he was going to marry. This is a character we've never heard about... never seen. She hires him. We get a taste of what the relationship was. What it now is. The episode ends. We never see her again. She has never mentioned again. That was very common in television in the 70s. It would be considered wholly unacceptable now. Okay? So you could do that sort of thing.

Right. Because it's, it's case of the week. Rockford had recurring characters, but there wasn't a developing relationship...

... That you had to track. So it could be the Case of the Week, and I think that's the challenge of of shows like Scarecrow and Mrs. King, and Remington Steele and Moonlighting, which we will cover later. That they were also tracking the development of a relationship and so moving shows or even though they were doing Case of the Week, they were also doing a little bit of a Soap Opera.

Absolutely.

Well, and something else happened in Rockford. Where, where were they ...

...Are we doing the Rockford podcast?

Laughing

I am.

His main... Well, the main female presence in the show was Beth Davenport played by Gretchen Corbett. And...

... Love. And so what they did with that character... and it allowed them to sort of take a very 70s modern view of sexual relationships... They just sort of baked-in that he and his lawyer sort of had an on again, off again, relationship. They were clearly very close. They work together professionally, and they dated. But they did not date exclusively. So you would have episodes where it was clear that they were together and spending time together and sleeping together. And then a few episodes later, she'd show up with a guy she's been dating and asked Jim to help. So they took this sort of extremely modern view, while at the same time, it helped them production wise, because they didn't have to track anything.

Who we love.

Yeah, and I mean, again, I would also say it does harken back to the classic sort of Detective Gal Friday element that where, they they they are and they aren't... or the secretary... or or even just, Hey, here's this female character that comes in and is that relationship. I think that you could track that that Rockford you know that Davenport relationship to other sort of Private Detective, you know, Tropes... with, with with women. But let's, let's move on to your experience of having to shift shows around.

Oh. Hahahahaha

You know what I'm trying to get to.

Right, as I was just telling you, as we were having this discussion the other night. I actually created a show 20 years ago now, called Miracles....

20 years ago, now. It was a great show.

And and if you want to watch it, unfortunately, you can't because it's not streaming anywhere.

One of the only shows that's ever been made on television, that's not streaming somewhere.

Absolutely not streaming.

Insane

But you can see it on YouTube. And if you can find them, you can get the DVDs... maybe Amazon, maybe eBay. But enough of a commercial for me. But what was funny is when we were talking about this, I go wait a second, they did that on Miracles. Because when we were doing Miracles, we were very interested in doing more or less self contained episodes. And a lot of the ideas we came up with were Oh, this is a cool idea. Here's a cool idea. Here's a cool idea. And we really hadn't baked into our show a lot of ongoing. I mean, there was no, there was no like girlfriend or a relationship that was either growing closer or breaking up in terms of...

... Well, there was, a there wasn't a Bromance, but there was a developing relationship between the two lead characters who had to work together. But you didn't need to track that... moment to moment.

Right. They were who they were. And, and we really liked that. It just was sort of, it was what the show was about, you know. And, and so we, we didn't really have to track a whole lot. There, there were a couple of things with our third lead, Marissa Ramirez and her character where she gets introduced, and at a certain point, we learn that she has a son who's like five years old. And so it was a little tricky, tracking that. But ultimately, what happened was, we were doing these episodes, and the Network really liked them. But at a certain point, they they sort of said, You know what, these episodes are great. But we're wondering if, if you can maybe introduce higher stakes, you know. If there's more like Life or Death stakes. The comparison obviously was The X Files, which had just recently, was either had gone off the air, or was about to go off the air. And with The X Files, I mean, those are FBI agents, they carried guns. There was always Life and Death stakes. Our show wasn't like that. These were not, you know, members of law enforcement, they were just investigating the Paranormal. So we developed a handful of episodes where it did imply there either were, or could be Life or Death stakes. And there was a greater sort of value put on, on violence and suspense. Episodes like the Bone Scatterer and Little Girl Lost and things like that.

We've seen these episodes. We're one of the few...

...The people in the room get it.

Laughing in the background.

So, so we did those episodes and, and they came out great and we were proud of them. But then the Network did what the Network is gonna do, which is... Okay, now let's move those up. So that people watching the early episodes, get a feeling of, Oh! Life and Death Stakes! It certainly existed in the pilot, but now they were getting it in Episode Three.

So you kind of, you kind of shook up the bowl of episodes and sort of rolled out some that would be more at "stake". And then some of the more, what I would call the more, you know, intriguing and charming episodes.

Yeah, yes.

Well, did the show premiering in the fall of that year? Or, because I'm wondering how... if you had time to, to shoot addition, these these episodes... so that they could air ahead of the the earlier ones. Because Network Television is like a runaway train. You get on and it just moves forward. So.

Oh, no, you're totally right! If we'd been a Fall Premiere, they couldn't have done it. But we premiered in January. And we were filming as early as late July/August. So we had a little bit of time. I mean, we had almost filmed every single episode by the time we aired. So yeah, that was ...

You had alotta time. You had a lot of time. Well, so typically, on a network show, what's your lead time? How far out are you shooting versus airing?

For a Network show, for a Fall Premiere, you, there's very little lead time. I mean you start, again, you're... Well, let's see. You're at Up-fronts in May. Your room is together, and typically meeting, right after Memorial Day. June, you're figuring out the Season and writing the first couple of scripts. And by mid July, you're filming. You're filming seven/eight days an episode. Let's say eight days. So five days a week, every week and a half, that's another episode. So you should, by Labor Day, have a small handful of episodes ready to go. Of course, they need to be Edited and Scored and Special Effects or whatever else you need in terms of Post, has to be done. And those episodes have to be Locked, and then Delivered. And then you get another week. And you have to have another one and then another week but but it does move very, very quickly. If you're Mid-Season like we were, it's a little bit easier.

So I'm just curious... because we were looking at call sheets for Scarecrow and Mrs. King, and production and air dates and... come January they were, they might be three weeks out. They might be shooting three weeks out from when they're airing an episode of Scarecrow and Mrs. King in 1984.

Yeah, no. That goes on today, I am sure there are episodes of big Network shows, you know the CSIs and NCISs, where they're doing a lot of episodes every year. And they're starting in the Fall where it gets down to that. With Networks, often what they do is they'll air a bunch of episodes through Christmas. And then that show that Network show will then not air for three months. And then it'll have a Second Premiere in March. And then the last batch of whatever nine or ten episodes air then. It allows them to catch up a little bit.

And give and give a little more time. All right, so the show you're currently on... you re-arranging episodes on that?

Absolutely not. Titans, we run a tight ship. We strive for efficiency!

You're streaming. So streaming...

Now we're streaming....

... how's the streaming shows? They'll write them all and then shoot them all. And that's it.

Well also, and it comes down to numbers too. There, you know, a lot of times what they do with Cable shows, is they will... you know, there'll be a Season of say 12 episodes, but for whatever reason... on Cable or Streaming... they'll show six of them. Then for six months, they won't show them and then you'll get the next six, like, you know, Season Three Part Two, or something. And, and from the outside, you think Oh, that's great! Because they got extra Post-Production time on those final six episodes. But truly, they don't. It's too expensive to draw it out. So, they're kept on that production schedule of Pre-Production, producing the episodes, and then Post-Production. They're just holding it back. I mean, there might be a little extra time for the final six, but certainly not months and months to get in there and you know, fiddle around.

Alright, well I thank you for coming on, and filling us in on our, our fabulous questions that we have about making television.

My pleasure, 80s TV Ladies!

Hopefully we will have you back... For sure! All right.

Thank you, Richard. All right, we're gonna try to stay on track so I can talk about a couple of episodes, and we got to talk about some of the cool guest stars...

Thank you, Richard!

... on Season Three. One of my favorites, because it's both weird and also again, moves the relationship along in an interesting way is Utopia Now, which is kind of a, Episode Seven. And basically, Amanda and Lee you know basically go have to, go to the backwoods of Virginia to spy on basically Militia White Nationalist guys, which is a lot of the show. You know who, and and then they have to go on the run from them. And you know sleep in the swamp, and and be nice to each other. I like that. Laughing.

Excellent.

Nothing like camping out with your potential boyfriend, I guess.

Yes. And then we get it like we get a Billy Episode. We get a little bit of a Francine Episode. So you were talking about the Billy Episode.

Yeah, it's it's totally. It's very different from from really anything else in the series that I can recall. It was, I was trying to think of the... it's sort of like the Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy Genre, kind of, sense about it. He hasn't. He was drugged and has amnesia and doesn't know what's happening. And it just it just felt like a completely different show. Like it belonged on a different show. But it was still great to see, to see that actor have a chance to...

Yeah. Mel Stuart really got to. He got to...

.... He got an episode.... for once because usually he's just... go do this, and...

Yeah, he's usually stuck in his office. You know, telling, you know, Lee to calm down. And Amanda, she's doing a good job.

Exactly. Laughing.

So yeah, he got to, he got to do some acting in this. He got to really, you know, get out of the office and, and care about... You know, this was important. It was personal. So that's always, those are always fun. And then Francine gets sent to like, the Middle East and kidnapped in what was it. Not Jada edge... I mean, they're just... it's a, they've got poisoned wine in this season, poisoned Fast Food Chains. (Guffaw) Lotta, a lot of poisoning of America that they have to solve.

It may have just been, you know, new new Show-Runners trying to take stories in a slightly different way to make things maybe a little bit more grounded. I mean, they spent a lot of time in Europe, the last season and international intrigue and stuff. Maybe that's what they were thinking.

Yeah, they definitely were doing a lot of, quote-unquote, International Episodes with a lot of 70s stock footage. It was, it was a little bit like, Oh, we're not going to send you there. But we're gonna start this, you know. Yeah. So yeah, Wrong Number, Francine is kidnapped in Kabul. And then they have to trade her. And at first you're like, Oh, this is gonna be cool Francine Episode. And then she's really not in the Episode... much.

Well, she's kidnapped. And I guess and, you know.

The episode that Kate Jackson directed is The Pharaohs Engineer. It's Episode 15. It's basically the Agency Retirement Home, there's shenanigans going on. And several of the retired Agents are disappearing. And Lee seems to think, Well they're old. And they, you know, they may not know what they're talking about. But of course, Amanda believes them. And it turns out there is some nefarious business at the Agency Retirement Home. Which again, it seems like a bad idea to put all your agents in the same Retirement Home.

Laughing

Well, I don't know. I mean, who else are they going to talk to about the good old days, when they were still, you know, out in the field. I guess.

Okay, we've lost Melissa...

Laughing...

Hey, KGB....

Laughing harder...

.... don't find out about that Agency Retirement Home.

Hehehehehe...

But, um, so there's an episode that also... called Playing for Keeps. Which is their Tennis Episode. Right? Which is kind of fun. But it clearly is an episode that got kind of reworked. Because it clearly is supposed to be Lee and Amanda, you know, go figure out those chaos at the tennis match. But instead, it's Lee and Francine. Because it's my understanding that, that Kate Jackson's father had passed away. And so she had to take that week off, or two weeks off, to do that. So again, you know, one of those cases of, we've got to change this show really quickly, at the last minute to, to accommodate you know, schedules and unexpected events and tragic events. And again, Lee and Francine do a pretty good job and Kate gets to call in. She has a cold, I think they give her a cold, so she doesn't get to hang out with with Lee. And Lee's a little sad about that. But, but he and Francine do crack the case. And that one's, that one's got with... that leads us into our guest stars. Because that of course has Tennis player, actual Tennis player, Tracy Austin.

Yeah, I was really in to, to Professional Tennis at that time and watched a lot of Tennis, and so when I saw the episode... I either didn't know or I'd forgotten she was on... had done a Guest Star on a TV show. So when I saw her I immediately went, I know who that is. Although I can't remember her name. So I had to look it up and I went, Oh! Good for her! You know that, and she could, she was very good in it.

She was good in it. They had a little running gag that like, she recognized both Lee and Francine from another like European Tennis Match where clearly, they were playing different undercover people. And so they, they had to pretend to be those people really quick. So it was, it was actually a pretty good gag.

It really was. Yeah.

And, and I thought that was fun. That that definitely... the 80s were definitely the time of putting a sports figure into an episode and having them basically play themselves. We saw a lot of that. I mean, I don't know, do we still see that? Does that still happen? I guess it still does, but it's more sophisticated now

Actually on Blackish, Jack got a job as a Locker Room Attendant at the Lakers. So there were two Lakers Players in the episode. And Magic Johnson did a little Cameo at the very end, for the for the Tag. So.

Ok, now you get three. Like there's, there's only Tracy Austin, as far as I can tell.

Yeah.

There might be some other tennis players in there. But yeah, that's pretty great. So they're, you're still doing... of course you're gona do it.

Yeah. Well, I think in this case, it certainly helped that somehow they got the Lakers. So they want to get as much Laker stuff in there as they possibly can. So.

For sure, yeah.

Well, for me, as we touched on earlier, there was a progression of their episode, their, their relationship, Lee and Amanda's through the course of this season. Very slow progression of the relationship through the course of the season. Lots of little teases at the end of, of episodes. And so they have their their first very chaste kiss at the end of Episode 13. And by the Final Episode, they actually had their final kiss and they they are definitely going to start dating, whatever you want to call it. The relationship is really begun. The romantic relationship.

The romantic relationship has really begun by the end. And yes, and I actually, I do like that Episode 13. Beverly Garland gets to do a lot. So everybody got to do a little more. They didn't get a lot in each episode necessarily. Because again, I feel like the, the kids and mom kind of got a little bit of a short shrift in every episode.

Yeah.

But they got the sort of like, definitely Beverly Garland gets an episode. So, she basically falls in love with, of course, a Russian Scientist. But that one also has some nice romantic elements to it that are fun. Because they they're listening in on, you know, her mom on her date. And she starts talking about that she thinks Amanda has, has a little somethin' goin' on at work. And so that's fun.

By the way, Harold Gould, who played Rhoda's father on the sitcom Rhoda, played the Russian that, that Beverly Garland's character, Dottie has, falls in love with, has a relationship with. So.

Another notable Guest Star for sure. And that, that's a great like, he's wonderful! Great character actor. Been in everything. Also, in this season. The guest stars are Kevin Nealon in Episode Four. He plays a security guard.

Yeah. He's, he's the guy at the desk as people are coming, coming in. He's supposed to check their IDs and he doesn't do as good a job perhaps as he should and let some people in that shouldn't be in. So.

Oh, yeah. There you go. Somebody, somebody's got to start that trouble.

That's right. Hehehe.

James Cromwell plays a Russian spy in, in an episode. And then he comes back, or he's been in before.

No, he comes back later...

Well, he's got... he's one of those like, Big Wig Russian Spies, who kind of gets to show up and be like, Yeah, I know you, Mel Stewart. It's that thing where you have those, you know, Russian spies that just get to hang out for a while, and then they get kicked back to Russia. And then they, you know, in shame, because Scarecrow ruined his life. So then he has to come back. And then try to ruin Scarecrow's life.

When he's, his first appearance is an Episode Four. The same one that Kevin Nealon is in. And then he comes back again in Episode 18, which is the one called Wrong Number, playing the same role. So somehow he managed, forgive me, I don't remember how he got away. Or they didn't even know about him. And then he returns. So. But it was interesting to see him play basically a bad guy. Because most of us know him from Babe.

Yes as like the great farmer.

Yeah, you know. So that was, that was really, that was really a little bit of a nice surprise. As, as all of these are. It's always kind of fun to watch these older shows. And suddenly someone turns up and you go, Oh, my gosh! That guy. That woman is in this particular episode.

Well, one of the things, and one of the things that definitely stood out as as a little bit of uneven, was they introduce a neighbor, Buck, who is played by Frank Bonner. Now he's great. And he's from WKRP, and again, well known Character Actor. And you're like, Oh, okay! This guy's gonna have something to do. But he doesn't really. He's in three episodes. He basically just walks in. He acts like Schneider from One Day at a Time. Like I was like, accept he's not a handyman. And and he just literally walks in and you're like, Why?

Well, probably because they were trying to find a way to pull the family back into it. To pull Dottie and the kid gets back into it. Because it kind of makes sense they moved away from from home, even though that is still a part of Amanda's life. But now she's actually more of an Agent. So, they're focusing more on that, as opposed to, Oh, she's gotta get home and help the kids with their homework or the Cub Scout project or whatever... the bake sale... whatever things they had her doing before. So.

And the kids are getting a little older.

Yeah.

And a little snarkier. They're like on the phone with, like, you know, talking to girls. But also commenting about what their mom's wearing. And is it a date that she's heading out to? So there's, the scenes with the kids are fun. They're just, it didn't feel as well integrated to me as in the first two seasons. But I will say there's a really interesting episode. Episode 11, The Wrong Way Home. And I remember this, from when the show first aired. Because it was, in some ways, very surprising to me. Because they, they bring back Amanda's ex-husband, who we've never met. We've only heard about, he has been in a foreign land doing important foreign work. And he basically, he comes back to DC because he's accused of murdering the Prime Minister of some foreign country. Ustocian?

Yes. The the, the well known fake country of Ustocian.

Yes. But it turns out he didn't. But Scarecrow and Mrs. King have to solve that. But what's interesting to me, what was interesting in that even resonated then, is he comes back, and he's a good guy.

Yeah!

Like, you know, he's in trouble. And, and they have this, like, very friendly relationship. Even though literally, he has been missing, (guffaw), completely absent father for two and a half years.

Yeah!

And um, but it feels like a very sweet kind of relationship.

And they don't really explain, or give any indication of what actually happened that led to them breaking up. And why she was okay with him being away and really not in their kids lives for all this time. For you know,

Yeah, it feels...

I'm sure it's all tied together.

It feels like, I mean, I think there's a few lines that are basically like, he got this great job offer and was like, Let's go to Ustocia! And she's like, Yeah, no! I think I'm not taking the kids out of school. I'm think we're gonna stay here. But he also sort of recog... He's like, You're different! Like, he sort of recognizes that she is a different person. And clearly seems to, like, in some ways, kind of want to pick up... like, you get the sense that he would be like, Hey! Let's pick up...

Or maybe just want... yeah... to get to know this new Amanda that he's seeing. Who is she?

Yeah, so there's, and and there's, there's this very odd thing that they do. Because the little tag for that episode is, she and her ex ...who by the way, is played by the actor that played her husband in The Rookies. It's like The Rookies broke up. And then she became a spy, instead of a nurse.

Well, and the moral of that story is, Be nice to your co-stars. You never know where they'll be. And someday, maybe they'll get your roll on their new show. So.

Being the child of divorced parents, seeing a kind of functional, dysfunctional relationship, felt really groundbreaking at the time. It was a very, in some ways, undramatic element to the show that I think if you did it now, it would be very much more. Because of it's immediate, like drama point. Like the ex-husband's back. She started this, you know, romantic thing. And what is that triangle going to be? Right? Or even just he's back, and now he's causing trouble as a mean Ex. This was so clearly, like a really... I don't know, I just found it really interesting choice.

Well, and as I think about it, I can't think of any. I'm sure there are other shows that have kind of gone that route in terms of reuniting exes and their, the their relationship is fine. They they mutually decided they didn't want to be married to each other anymore. And that's, that's okay. As opposed to some sort of push and pull of acrimony or accusations between them and bad blood. It's, it is, it is very much the exception rather than the rule. So.

They play it as a moment for Lee Stetson to kind of go, Oh! Maybe I have to take a step back. Because he basically, you know, saves, saves him and and the family. And he saves them at their kids' school. And so it, there's this moment where it's like, their family is back together, and Lee Stetson is to the side. Watching it happen. The lone wolf again. But she sort of doesn't let that play. Like, and so that's an interesting kind of moment. We also Oh, my God! Garrett Morris! Garrett Morris is in this episode as well. And Garrett Morris, of course from Saturday Night Live and The Jeffersons, you know, basically is a Guest Star. And in The Wrong Way Home.... and there's a spoiler alert here. So if you want to watch this show, and don't want to know about it, then stop right now. Pause or skip forward. You know, I don't know, 45 seconds... He, he plays the Prime Minister who supposedly has been murdered. But he shows up as basically, not that. And so Lee is like, he shows up as just a Diplomat. And he's, he's a little bit wacky, and Lee has to put up with him and is trying to be very nice to him. Because he's clearly an important Diplomat. But it turns out, he's actually the Prime Minister. He hasn't been murdered, and he's come to help solve... There was a murder attempt on his life and now he has to solve it. And so it's very, lots of International intrigue going on there.

Yeah.

But he's great.

And this is actually one of the few times they've made up a country. Usually people are from, you know, real countries. You know, whether they be the bad guys or whatever situation's happening. Which I also found really interesting that, that they were able to do that. Or they decided to do that. Because a lot of times in these shows, they'll just make up a place, and you know, so as to not offend anybody, I guess.

All right. Well, I think that's most of our... Oh. Ray Wise, is a big bad.

Yeah, he's our, he's our, our antagonist in, in Episode 15, The Triumvirate. Again, just somebody else that you see in the show, you go, my gosh. Hehehehe.

I do. I do love The Triumvirate Episode because basically, it starts off, um, and Amanda gets her paycheck. And it's like, like, $100,000 or something. And it's like, it's way too much. And she's like, Okay, clearly I've gotten the wrong amount. And then she has to like, you stand, and then she's trying to correct it, and sort of facing the bureaucracy of working for a Federal Agency. But it turns out, then, of course, she was paid... She was given the check of a, of an Assassin who was being paid to do an assassin thing. And so, yeah. But but that one's very funny because she obvious, she's like so, like a... she doesn't just run in cash it. Ya Know? hehehehe.

She's Amanda! She would never do that.

She's Amanda. So she's like, Oh my God. This is wrong. Somebody made a mistake. And I have to give this back. And. But then, of course, by the end of the show, she's like doesn't have her, Her paycheck. Right? And she's, you know, very much living paycheck to paycheck, even though she has very nice dresses for a lot of those Embassy events. And, and so Lee brings her, her check at the end of, of the episode, so that she can, you know, make her mortgage payment. The other, I liked the final two episodes. They're a little bit odd, and a little bit fun. Three Little Spies, is Lee and Amanda, with a rival Russian and Chinese agents that are also male/female teams. So it's the six of them, trying to solve some major nuclear crisis. And there's clearly like, basically, you know, it's, it's a lot of like spies trying to work together...That are enemies.

Yeah. Trying to figure out if they can trust each other. And just that, because they're all trying to to solve the same problem...

... Stolen nuclear detonators, headed for Pakistan. And then, and then the final episode, you know of course, is set in the Theater World. (Hehehe) A favorite of mine, that that trope. The like, Oh my gosh, we have to go solve a crime in the Theater World. Yeah, that turns out like a playwright is putting KGB messages into his play or something, something crazy. Is money laundering. I don't know. It's some crazy use of a playwright by the KGB.

Yeah.

And so that requires Amanda and Lee Stetson to go on stage, as actors.

Chuckling

But mostly Amanda. It's, it, but, you know again, as a theater creator and lover, that one's always fun. I always love that one. So that kind of like, That's our, that's, that Season Three. So. So coming up, we have some really exciting stuff.

We're going to have the actress that played Francine.

Francine Desmond. Miss Martha Smith!

Yes Martha Smith. It's very exciting. Can't wait to hear some of the stories she has to tell about her time on the show.

Well, I am I'm super excited to hear about being on on that show, being a strong female character. But who often gets short shrifted, I think. In the, in the, in the show, even though it's so... again, I think fairly unusual of the time, to have another woman agent, that even though is sort of a rival, they also are co workers. And end up having grudging respect for each other.

Right. Right. Yeah. I mean, Francine had, you know, a certain level of skepticism about Amanda, understandably so. Francine is a trained agent and suddenly this woman who Lee literally picked up on a...

... train station.

Sharon Johnson 1:00:05
Yeah, on the platform… is now involved in cases? I could see where she would be a little skeptical of that. But she, over time begins to appreciate what Amanda brings to the table, and what she's capable of. So that's, that's really great.

Susan Lambert Hatem 1:00:23
I want to thank, uh, thank you guys for listening. It's been super fun as we get distracted. and, but we've come up with like three or four different podcasts. So I'm really excited about that. We can't forget our audio-ology. I just got this book. So I just started reading it. Beverly Garland, Her Life and Career by Deborah del Vecchio. So I'm very excited to read about Beverly Garland. She had a very long career. Really, uh pretty amazing, and she does a fabulous job with Dottie. I think she creates a lot of character for Dottie, with not a ton of screen time. But it's exciting. There's a chapter that sort of covers her time on Remington Steele and Scarecrow and Mrs. King. I want to shout out again, Come Walk With Me. It's a fan website. I want to really thank all the fans who are reaching out to us. Thank you for sending us your thoughts and favorite 80s TV Ladies. Keep 'em coming. I especially want to shout out Alan F and Alex B and Jeanette V!

Here's part of Jeanette's message. She says, "What defines an 80s TV lady? I think it's that these women were unapologetic about having jobs and either having no husband and or children, or how they balanced work and home. And for shows which defined us? She says, "For me, Murphy Brown and Designing Women were the big ones. I love tons of 80s shows, but those were the most impactful on my own take, on what my career would look like.

Jeanette thankfully also confirmed what we talked about in this very episode. Saying that indeed, many shows filmed in Europe in 1984, to avoid the LA Olympics. We were right! Please tell us what you think. Tell us who we should be covering. Tell us what shows we should be covering. Go to 80sTVLadies.com That's eight zero s TV ladies.com. Don't give us a show we can't cover. It has to have Ladies in it. And um...

... and it has to be from the 80s I believe.

And it has to be from the 80s.

You know, title of the show. We hope 80s TV Ladies brings you joy and laughter and lots of fabulous new and old shows to watch. All of which lead us forward toward being amazing ladies of the 21st century.

Thank you, guys, for listening!

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Episode 105: Slipping sideways into Scarecrow, Mrs. King and Season 3

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